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Does Op-amp Rolling Work?

Rate this article on opamp rolling:

  • 1. Terrible. Didn't learn anything

    Votes: 14 4.6%
  • 2. Kind of useful but I am still not convinced

    Votes: 22 7.3%
  • 3. I learned some and agree with conclusions

    Votes: 54 17.8%
  • 4. Wonderful to have data and proof that such "upgrades" don't work

    Votes: 213 70.3%

  • Total voters
    303
As some people seem to take me for a science ignoring and trolling audiophile, I’d like to steer the focus back strictly to the engineering side of performance optimization. My goal is to minimize budget while maximizing results, and that requires a deep dive into what actually defines transparency.

I come from the era of cassette decks and dbx noise reduction (copying vinyl 1:1 on cromo tapes). Back then, we understood that transparency was largely a matter of time-domain accuracy. dbx was a 2:1 linear companding system; it was pure analog math where the time constant of the RMS detector and the VCA's reaction speed were everything. If the timing was off, you’d hear 'breathing' or 'pumping.' It was a straightforward relationship between dynamics and time.

Fast forward to today, and we are incredibly spoiled by the steady-state performance of budget gear like Fosi. However, I feel that in our current quest for the highest SINAD, we might be overlooking the 'modern' equivalent of those timing errors.

While dbx dealt with millisecond-scale artifacts, modern high-performance op-amps and DACs deal with micro- or nanosecond-scale issues. This is why I am exploring parameters likesettling time and phase margin in the feedback loop. Just like a slow detector in a dbx unit could ruin a transient, a sub-optimal settling time in an op-amp can cause ringing and overshoot that a static 1kHz FFT simply won't capture.

I’m currently going to test the JFET-based OPA2604 specifically to see how its architecture handles the complex, non-periodic signals of actual music compared to the standard bipolar chips. I’m not looking for 'magic'; I’m looking to understand if the time-domain precision we fought for in the analog days has been fully accounted for in the digital SINAD-race, or if there's still room for optimization through better understanding of dynamic load behavior. Without airy cables or rhodium plated contacts that are technically even less conductive than the compromise that is gold, trading electrical performance for nothing more than chemical inertness.
 
I’m currently going to test the JFET-based OPA2604 specifically to see how its architecture handles the complex, non-periodic signals of actual music compared to the standard bipolar chips
What does "test" mean?

If an op amp is marginally stable, that's a design fault - one I suspect you're far more likely to introduce through blindly swapping in parts than find in a product sold by a reputable company.
 
Airy cables?
Yeah... in my search for knowledge and truth in todays audio systems I read about those... I think (if I remember correctly) they should be better because of air trapped into a cable shield or something like that...:facepalm::):p;)
 
Yeah... in my search for knowledge and truth in todays audio systems I read about those... I think (if I remember correctly) they should be better because of air trapped into a cable shield or something like that...:facepalm::):p;)
I cannot tell if you are actually serious or not...
 
What does "test" mean?

If an op amp is marginally stable, that's a design fault - one I suspect you're far more likely to introduce through blindly swapping in parts than find in a product sold by a reputable company.
test means if I can hear a difference (I can argue about that with technical facts about how opamps work)... but the real testing... I don't have the equipment for that; Would love it if the people on this forum that have it would do that... For me personally, if I don't hear a difference? I would still be interested in the "why and if", but I would not spend money on those parts for sure... (I specifically chose the OPA2604 for its high phase margin and stability, and those JFET opamps where 9 EUR fo a set of 5 pieces, and that was the main goal: thermal drifting bipolar versus JFET). If you can't hear it, there's no use, right?
 
I cannot tell if you are actually serious or not...
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../audioquest-wind-high-end-cable-review.17065/ Here it is... from amirm, and it's Audioquest... they call it pe-air tubes or something like it... and they have pages full of explanations about it
1766764911310.png
 
You've not heard of multitone tests?


JSmith
He seems to ignore the multitone test performed in plenty of Amirs reviews ? The test signal is actually more demanding than music ?

And afiak time domain and frequency domain are equivalent ? Just a different perspective ? if it's reaching >20kHz whatever it is it's fast enough ? transients = high frequency content , music transients are not really transients compared to step signals , music signals are not infinitely fast .

"Timing" is on my audiophile bingo card ? I don't have the math background but i smell a misunderstanding as soon as we are discussing "Timing"

And yes its appreciated to use once owns words as bad as they are and not paste blocks of generated texts :) Like some suspected Yourtaers initial post to be ?
 
If the amp is questionably stable you will likely see FR peaking if you sweep over a wide enough bandwidth. That’s your sign that you’ve goofed up.

In practice I’ve only encountered this with amps I built as a teenager, putting a little too much faith into SPICE simulations, but I’m sure you *could* find poorly designed products in the wild. I doubt such a product would measure particularly well, however, as an oscillating op amp is not a low distortion op amp.
 
You've not heard of multitone tests?


JSmith
A multitone test shows us the 'average' behavior of the op-amp when it's already 'warmed up' and stable. It doesn't show the settling timer the thermal tail immediately following a massive step-function in the signal. It is excellent for showing Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) in a steady-state condition, but it is still a periodic stationary signal. Thats' my argument: I specifically chose the OPA2604 for its high phase margin and stability. My interest isn't in 'rolling' for the sake of it, but in seeing if the inherent lack of input bias current in a JFET-input stage provides a cleaner transient response than the bipolar LM4562, which are prone to thermal drift under dynamic loads. If the SINAD is identical but the settling behavior differs, that is a 'test' worth exploring. I'd love to see someone with an AP-analyzer run anull test with actual music instead of just sine waves to see if these temporal differences manifest as a measurable residual. There are arguments that the better SNR or a lower noise floor (where bipolar chips often win) are the ultimate goal. But a lower noise floor on a static chart doesn't compensate for temporal smearing.

If a bipolar op-amp has a better SNR but suffers from a 'thermal ttail' or longer settling time after a peak, it’s like having a perfectly silent room where the speakers have a slight echo. The background is quiet, but the definition of the sound is blurred. I would argue that for human hearing (specifically our 10 microsecond ITD resolution), the accuracy of the transient flank is more critical for a convincing soundstage than an extra 5dB of SNR that sits well below the room's ambient noise floor anyway. Again... I just posted taht as a motiuvation to "test" the OPA2604. For me the being audibly perceptible (is that correct English? I'm going without rewrite/translate aid now)... is the most important thing, but for ASR... the real challenge lies in capturing the non-stationary, non linear behavoiur of these circuits. Standard FFTs and multitones are 'blind' to what happens in the first few microseconds after a massive transient. The real 'test' would be to measure STA and TM under dynamic, complex loads. If we only measure the steady-state, we might be perfecting the silence while ignoring the 'blur' that happens when the music actually starts. The digital domain involves an obsession with picoseconds of jitter, yet 'analog jitter' occurring in the microseconds range is oftenignored in analog stages. Adding up the slew induced delay, the settling/ringing time and the bipolar thermal tail ...the total temporal uncertainty of a standard opamp can easily exceed the 10 microsecond ITD resolution of human hearing.

If an op-amp is still drifting or ringing during that critical 10 microsecond window used by the brain for spatial localization, the stereo image loses focus. This is not about the volume of the error at -120dB SINAD, but about the timing precision of the transient flank. A JFET op-amp like the OPA2604 settles faster and lacks the thermal memory of bipolar chips, keeping this analog jitter below the biological clock. If picoseconds matter in a DAC, microseconds should matter in the analog stage. And if -80dB versus -100dB is of no interest (arguments against audiophiles), it shoudl not matter for bipolar versus JFEt either... so... gain some unhearable noise but also higher sound quality.

If you can't hear it, there's no use, right? But if there is a difference, I suspect the truth is hidden in the time domain, not in a 1kHz SINAD chart. And it always seesm to turn out into one way bipolar unhearable argumentation until you swap the challenge... I have not yet seen any arguments against this. neither have I heard any difference because the opamps are still on their way... due to Xmas probably... :)
 
I'd love to see someone with an AP-analyzer run anull test with actual music instead of just sine waves to see if these temporal differences manifest as a measurable residual.
I did that, with a rather complex procedure, measuring down to 150...160dB residual, some 40dB down in the noise floor: Nothing. The only thing I found was 1/f noise and DC drift of the reference voltages in the DAC and ADC used. Will link to thread later...
 
A multitone test shows us the 'average' behavior of the op-amp when it's already 'warmed up' and stable. It doesn't show the settling timer the thermal tail immediately following a massive step-function in the signal. It is excellent for showing Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) in a steady-state condition, but it is still a periodic stationary signal. Thats' my argument: I specifically chose the OPA2604 for its high phase margin and stability. My interest isn't in 'rolling' for the sake of it, but in seeing if the inherent lack of input bias current in a JFET-input stage provides a cleaner transient response than the bipolar LM4562, which are prone to thermal drift under dynamic loads. If the SINAD is identical but the settling behavior differs, that is a 'test' worth exploring. I'd love to see someone with an AP-analyzer run anull test with actual music instead of just sine waves to see if these temporal differences manifest as a measurable residual. There are arguments that the better SNR or a lower noise floor (where bipolar chips often win) are the ultimate goal. But a lower noise floor on a static chart doesn't compensate for temporal smearing.

If a bipolar op-amp has a better SNR but suffers from a 'thermal ttail' or longer settling time after a peak, it’s like having a perfectly silent room where the speakers have a slight echo. The background is quiet, but the definition of the sound is blurred. I would argue that for human hearing (specifically our 10 microsecond ITD resolution), the accuracy of the transient flank is more critical for a convincing soundstage than an extra 5dB of SNR that sits well below the room's ambient noise floor anyway. Again... I just posted taht as a motiuvation to "test" the OPA2604. For me the being audibly perceptible (is that correct English? I'm going without rewrite/translate aid now)... is the most important thing, but for ASR... the real challenge lies in capturing the non-stationary, non linear behavoiur of these circuits. Standard FFTs and multitones are 'blind' to what happens in the first few microseconds after a massive transient. The real 'test' would be to measure STA and TM under dynamic, complex loads. If we only measure the steady-state, we might be perfecting the silence while ignoring the 'blur' that happens when the music actually starts. The digital domain involves an obsession with picoseconds of jitter, yet 'analog jitter' occurring in the microseconds range is oftenignored in analog stages. Adding up the slew induced delay, the settling/ringing time and the bipolar thermal tail ...the total temporal uncertainty of a standard opamp can easily exceed the 10 microsecond ITD resolution of human hearing.

If an op-amp is still drifting or ringing during that critical 10 microsecond window used by the brain for spatial localization, the stereo image loses focus. This is not about the volume of the error at -120dB SINAD, but about the timing precision of the transient flank. A JFET op-amp like the OPA2604 settles faster and lacks the thermal memory of bipolar chips, keeping this analog jitter below the biological clock. If picoseconds matter in a DAC, microseconds should matter in the analog stage. And if -80dB versus -100dB is of no interest (arguments against audiophiles), it shoudl not matter for bipolar versus JFEt either... so... gain some unhearable noise but also higher sound quality.

If you can't hear it, there's no use, right? But if there is a difference, I suspect the truth is hidden in the time domain, not in a 1kHz SINAD chart. And it always seesm to turn out into one way bipolar unhearable argumentation until you swap the challenge... I have not yet seen any arguments against this. neither have I heard any difference because the opamps are still on their way... due to Xmas probably... :)
If Multitone signals is not enough the next step is an FSAF measurement with whatever signal you like, even music, whole tracks.
(beware of the interpretation of results though, it can be tricky with variable levels! )
I have tried it with different gear and OPA rolling as well. It does not take much, a decent interface, decent controls, etc, as in everything.

If an overall behavior is what you're after it may be what you look for.
 
A multitone test shows us the 'average' behavior of the op-amp when it's already 'warmed up' and stable. It doesn't show the settling timer the thermal tail immediately following a massive step-function in the signal. It is excellent for showing Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) in a steady-state condition, but it is still a periodic stationary signal. Thats' my argument: I specifically chose the OPA2604 for its high phase margin and stability. My interest isn't in 'rolling' for the sake of it, but in seeing if the inherent lack of input bias current in a JFET-input stage provides a cleaner transient response than the bipolar LM4562, which are prone to thermal drift under dynamic loads. If the SINAD is identical but the settling behavior differs, that is a 'test' worth exploring. I'd love to see someone with an AP-analyzer run anull test with actual music instead of just sine waves to see if these temporal differences manifest as a measurable residual. There are arguments that the better SNR or a lower noise floor (where bipolar chips often win) are the ultimate goal. But a lower noise floor on a static chart doesn't compensate for temporal smearing.

If a bipolar op-amp has a better SNR but suffers from a 'thermal ttail' or longer settling time after a peak, it’s like having a perfectly silent room where the speakers have a slight echo. The background is quiet, but the definition of the sound is blurred. I would argue that for human hearing (specifically our 10 microsecond ITD resolution), the accuracy of the transient flank is more critical for a convincing soundstage than an extra 5dB of SNR that sits well below the room's ambient noise floor anyway. Again... I just posted taht as a motiuvation to "test" the OPA2604. For me the being audibly perceptible (is that correct English? I'm going without rewrite/translate aid now)... is the most important thing, but for ASR... the real challenge lies in capturing the non-stationary, non linear behavoiur of these circuits. Standard FFTs and multitones are 'blind' to what happens in the first few microseconds after a massive transient. The real 'test' would be to measure STA and TM under dynamic, complex loads. If we only measure the steady-state, we might be perfecting the silence while ignoring the 'blur' that happens when the music actually starts. The digital domain involves an obsession with picoseconds of jitter, yet 'analog jitter' occurring in the microseconds range is oftenignored in analog stages. Adding up the slew induced delay, the settling/ringing time and the bipolar thermal tail ...the total temporal uncertainty of a standard opamp can easily exceed the 10 microsecond ITD resolution of human hearing.

If an op-amp is still drifting or ringing during that critical 10 microsecond window used by the brain for spatial localization, the stereo image loses focus. This is not about the volume of the error at -120dB SINAD, but about the timing precision of the transient flank. A JFET op-amp like the OPA2604 settles faster and lacks the thermal memory of bipolar chips, keeping this analog jitter below the biological clock. If picoseconds matter in a DAC, microseconds should matter in the analog stage. And if -80dB versus -100dB is of no interest (arguments against audiophiles), it shoudl not matter for bipolar versus JFEt either... so... gain some unhearable noise but also higher sound quality.

If you can't hear it, there's no use, right? But if there is a difference, I suspect the truth is hidden in the time domain, not in a 1kHz SINAD chart. And it always seesm to turn out into one way bipolar unhearable argumentation until you swap the challenge... I have not yet seen any arguments against this. neither have I heard any difference because the opamps are still on their way... due to Xmas probably... :)
The thing you seem to continously overlook is the possibility that your perception is far, far more susceptible to false positives than it is to extremely low-level “misbehavior”

I won’t claim golden ears, but I’ve done blind tests using various methodologies with music and the amps I’ve owned, and invariably, when there was an unexpectedly large perceptible difference, I would track it down to some stupid mistake like swapping the channels, and once corrected the test would become very unexciting.
 
but it is still a periodic stationary signal.
It’s not.
elements to which our hearing is extremely sensitive via the Precedence (Haas) Effect.
Citation needed

This results in signal-dependent modulation perceived as a lack of micro-dynamics
Citation needed

This doesn't appear as a distinct peak on an FFT but rather as a subtle elevation of the noise floor during playback, impacting the "black background" and perceived depth.
Citation needed

The stability of the feedback loop under these dynamic loads is crucial for transparency.
Citation needed

Lots of technobabble, lots of assertions, zero evidence.
 
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OK.... this has been a long-running thread with recurring questions and answers, mostly revolving around audibility thresholds (-80, -90, or even -120dB) and SINAD measurements. But as hard as the "tech side" hammers down those SINAD graphs, the audiophile camp retorts with "I hear what I hear." Conversely, when engineers claim to optimize and control every detail through rigorous testing, they often fail to provide the actual graphs or measurements to back it up, dismissing them as "industrial secrets." No personal intent, but without backup science and explanation, just a few posts back, this "They are very optimized for temperature, distortion, frequency response and on and on and it is all able to be done by controlling every aspect of the design. The design size, integrity, circuit layout, distance between components and temperature operational matters are all optimized by the OP amp IC designers making many adjustments and stuff to reach the final layout and design and putting it into the OP amp IC. By making a OP amp discreet circuitry all that optimization and the repeatability of that optimization is lost because discreet circuitry cannot be optimized like a OP amp IC can be optimized and then totally controlled in all aspects the way a IC OP amp is manufactured to such incredibly accurate repeatable specification." has the same vibe as any audiophile mumbo jumbo, not? From a scientific point of view, I’d like to offer some insight/questions into this impasse.

Basically, the discussion often misses the mark because we’re talking past each other: it’s 'scientific measurements' versus 'subjective hearing and feeling.' In my view, the best approach is to flip the script and use science to challenge those same arguments. Imagine two people watching cars pass by on a highway. One might scientifically conclude that they are all traveling at 120 km/h with a variance of less than 0.5%, meaning there is no 'scientific' difference between them. Meanwhile, the other person waxes lyrical about the smooth, quiet ride of a high-end Mercedes or BMW, or the instantaneous throttle response of a Ferrari.

The only thing they might agree on is that an old Fiat Panda is clearly struggling to maintain that 120 km/h: it’s probably running hot, burning a bit of oil, and screaming at high RPMs. But their consensus ends there: for one, anything from a Volkswagen Golf upwards is identical because they all hit 120 km/h... period.

Right, now let’s translate that to the world of audio, and specifically op-amp rolling in the Fosi ZD3. While I appreciate the "crisp and clear" signature of discrete options like the Sparkos 3602 or Burson Vivids, I wanted to try a different path. The LMs in the Fosi units (like my V3 Monos) also belong to that same clean, clinical school of thought. So, just for the sake of it, I ordered a set of OPA2604s for very little money to try out in my Fosi ZD3.

The ZD3 feeds my ZP3 through both XLR and RCA, creating a sort of "hybrid op-rolled" preamp setup. This allows me to switch between op-amps on the fly—rolling the XLR path while keeping the RCA stock, and then vice versa. In my experience, op-amps seem to have a much greater impact in preamps than they do in power amps.

While I do believe in measurements and agree that distortions below -70dB are generally inaudible in a vacuum, I don't believe a single-tone waveform can compete with the complex signal-splitting job our brains perform. You cannot ignore the fact that while a single 2kHz tone may look identical on two different graphs, actual music will show slight variations. Specifically, how a component handles the timing and integration of harmonics under load is where the real differences lie.

The core of the debate is that we are often looking at the wrong domains. A SINAD figure derived from a constant 1 kHz sine wave tells us about baseline quality, but almost nothing about how a component reacts to the complex, non-periodic signals of music. Here is why the standard FFT might be missing the mark:

The Failure of Static FFT with Transients (Settling Time): Standard FFT measurements are steady-state. Music is a succession of impulses. An op-amp with a narrow Phase Margin or a sub-optimal feedback loop exhibits "ringing" and overshoot following a steep transient. You won't see this on a static FFT because the error is in the time domain and Vaak ultrasonic. In a Null Test, need these op-amps reveal a distinct spike in the residual signal at every transient, affecting timing precision and soundstage focus—elements to which our hearing is extremely sensitive via the Precedence (Haas) Effect.

Thermal Tail (Thermal Memory): Transistors on the silicon die change temperature with every current spike, modifying bias and gain-factors in real-time. An Audio Precision sweep is too slow to capture this; by the time the sweep registers, the chip has reached thermal equilibrium. This results in signal-dependent modulation perceived as a lack of micro-dynamics—a dynamic non-linearity that static THD measurements simply mask.

RFI/EMI Rectification and Input-Stage Behavior: Op-amp input stages (JFET vs. Bipolar) react differently to high-frequency interference from DAC clocks and switching power supplies. Some op-amps "rectify" or demodulate this ultrasonic garbage into the audible band. This doesn't appear as a distinct peak on an FFT but rather as a subtle elevation of the noise floor during playback, impacting the "black background" and perceived depth.

IMD in the Ultrasonic Domain and Load Interaction: Standard analysis stops at 20 kHz, but DACs produce significant artifacts above that. An op-amp with a lower Slew Rate or higher high-frequency distortion can modulate these ultrasonic tones back into the audible range via Intermodulation Distortion (IMD). Furthermore, real-world loads (cables, traces) are capacitive and inductive, not just resistive. The stability of the feedback loop under these dynamic loads is crucial for transparency.

Low distortion is a prerequisite for good audio, but not a guarantee of transparency. Relying solely on the FFT is like looking at a still photograph of a race to conclude who has the fastest sprint. The truth lies in the time domain and dynamic stability.
Nice manifesto.

Here is why the standard FFT might be missing the mark:
OK, then demonstrate.

I appreciate your perspective on blind tests, but there’s a fundamental methodological flaw in that logic. Recording a file through various op-amps and then playing them back through the same output stage is not the same as comparing the output stages themselves.

The discussion here isn't about how a file 'captures' an op-amp's signature; it's about how the final output stage—the actual gatekeeper—interacts with the complex, dynamic load of the rest of the chain. When you're rolling op-amps in a preamp, you’re changing that final interface.

Referring to the hundreds of NE5532s in the production phase is a common argument, but it ignores the fact that those chips operate in a highly buffered, internal environment. The op-amp in your DAC or Preamp, however, has to deal with high-frequency DAC noise, RFI, and varying cable capacitances in real-time.

And I’ll raise you a '100 times' test, which creates a perfect Catch-22: if we ran a signal through an op-amp path 100 times and there’s no difference, you’d say it’s inaudible. But if there is a difference after 100 passes, you’ll just argue that we’ve simply amplified cumulative signal degradation and noise floor issues, rather than the op-amp's character itself.

Lastly, the '-120dB air molecule' analogy misses the mark. We aren't claiming to hear a -120dB floor; we are discussing how non-linearities in the time domain (like ringing or settling time) affect the clarity and timing of the transients at 85dB. It’s not about volume; it’s about signal integrity under dynamic load.
I appreciate that you appreciate that I constructed a logical argument. Your turn now.

Do your 100-times test, report back with your results.:cool: Your attempt to ensnare me in your diabolical 'Catch-22' scheme won't work until you actually generate a result. :p You may also want to re-read that book, it's more subtle than trying to win arguments online.:facepalm:

Did Santa just bring you an expensive device that claims some sort of time-domain advantage? ;) Perhaps a fancy DAC? It would explain the need to set-trip over to ASR and troll. But this is me speculating and having fun, as you are.
 
While I appreciate the "crisp and clear" signature of discrete options like the Sparkos 3602 or Burson Vivids
Say what now?


I don't believe a single-tone waveform can compete with the complex signal-splitting job our brains perform. You cannot ignore the fact that while a single 2kHz tone may look identical on two different graphs, actual music will show slight variations
And your evidence for this is?

Also - what about multi-tone?

Here is why the standard FFT might be missing the mark: yada yada yada.

Followed by the usual nonsense. And in this case AI generated nonsense - which it is spectacularly good at.



it's about how the final output stage—the actual gatekeeper—interacts with the complex, dynamic load of the rest of the chain.
No it isn't - The whole point of the load on a typical op amp output is that is is designed specifically NOT to be complex or dynamic.
The only complex dynamic load in your system is your speakers - and they are not connected to the output of an op amp.


Write 50 times. Must try harder.

As some people seem to take me for a science ignoring and trolling audiophile, I’d like to steer the focus back strictly to the engineering side of performance optimization.
Little bit late for that - you've sort of blown your cover.


Oh, and do please try not to join a forum to post nonsense after your fourth Christmas day whiskey. There's a good chap! :p
 
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