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Does Imagination play a role in how we enjoy Sound Stage?

The good thing, and segue back to topic, is that we need neither charts nor imagination to figure out where the basses are. As long as our stereo reproduction is up to scratch.
 
I in no way owe you an answer giving your lacking credentials at any level. I have been collecting and listening to classical music for over 40 years and own about 3k albums of it. I know how the vast majority of orchestras are set up ((as would anyone that truly follows classical recordings), I also know of many experiments around such placement. I just don't know you and I don't think I care about learning more either given your current comments and track record.
The attached video is of the London Symphony Orchestra, hardly a radical group, playing Sibelius. The answer to many of your questions can be found at 6:15. The celli are in the center right of the orchestra, the bass viols on risers behind them dead center The 1st violin are on the left, the 2nds on the right, violas to the right of the 1st violins. This is just one of the many layouts commonly employed outside the US.


In fairness, LSO does use the basses on the right configuration, but in the next clip, they are again with the 2nd violins on the right layout playing Prokofiev. Guess where the bull fiddles are perched.


As for my comments, I believe they've been accurate for the most part and I have tried to be polite.
 
As for my comments, I believe they've been accurate for the most part and I have tried to be polite.

It's always a good idea to be polite. One of the most damaging situations in human endeavors, whether science, war strategy or politics, is to let firm conviction carry one into a radical stance. That hurts us more than our opponent. Believe me ... I know this to be true.

The world at large will judge. People are capable, and not as naive or stupid as we sometimes suppose. And if the world at large chooses to ignore the issue ... well then, perhaps the issue wasn't worth the fight, eh? :)

I believe that the members here have more in common that unite them as friends than they do divisions that separate them as opponents.

Jim
 
The attached video is of the London Symphony Orchestra, hardly a radical group, playing Sibelius. The answer to many of your questions can be found at 6:15. The celli are in the center right of the orchestra, the bass viols on risers behind them dead center The 1st violin are on the left, the 2nds on the right, violas to the right of the 1st violins. This is just one of the many layouts commonly employed outside the US.


In fairness, LSO does use the basses on the right configuration, but in the next clip, they are again with the 2nd violins on the right layout playing Prokofiev. Guess where the bull fiddles are perched.


As for my comments, I believe they've been accurate for the most part and I have tried to be polite.
That placement of stuff is the exception rather than the rule in classical. That was my point all along. I have about 10 recordings of something like the Canon with CD leaflets going on about why the ensemble is the most authentic interpretation etc. If anyone thinks conductors are not self promoting egos doing stuff to differentiate themselves.. you are naive.
 
Speaking of long-established setup standards for Classical orchestras:

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Speaking of multi-channel recordings, though I never really found all that much value in the rear channels of 5.1 surround for Classical recordings, that center channel (which was on the "Living Stereo" and "Living Presence" SACDS) really firmed up the center fill. I doubt I'll ever go back to 5.1 playback, the market really isn't supporting it all that much and like I said, the rear channels don't seem to provide much more than hall reverb. But that center channel was nice for "soundstage".
I have about 10 recordings of something like the Canon with CD leaflets going on about why the ensemble is the most authentic interpretation etc. If anyone thinks conductors are not self promoting egos doing stuff to differentiate themselves.. you are naive.
Are you referring to Pachelbel's Canon? I know most people started out with the Munchinger and Jean-François Paillard recordings, very early attempts that had little awareness of Baroque performance practices. Brian Eno, in one of his earliest "ambient" recordings, mocked the Paillard recording with his three variations on this recording for his "Discreet Music" album by stretching out the already slow tempi into taffy. My old boss, who had an Early Music radio show, like to play the Musica Antiqua Köln recording on Archiv. That recording was played with one on a part and uptempo in a comparatively dry acoustic. He got a lot of hate mail for that. It's my favorite version.

Music is a living art, and subject to change. I'm not sure why you should be so incensed with conductors who decide to change seating arrangements. Stokowski, Mengleberg and Furtwängler did a lot more to distort the music as written. Maybe your ire is better aimed in that general direction.
 
That placement of stuff is the exception rather than the rule in classical. That was my point all along. I have about 10 recordings of something like the Canon with CD leaflets going on about why the ensemble is the most authentic interpretation etc. If anyone thinks conductors are not self promoting egos doing stuff to differentiate themselves.. you are naive.
I assume you mean Pachelbel's canon, writen during a time when ensemble layout (and instruments) were in flux. No surprise that the "authentic" performance crowd might ponder layout, along with tuning, bridge height, etc. Hell, they're still debating whether the "double bass" is a member of the viol or violin families.

True, layout in the US for most orchestras in most situation has cleaved to the basses right model, celli in front of them, but not didactically. And it's changing. In Europe, it is otherwise. Many quite respected, mainstream orchestras in Europe have adopted other layouts as standard or as frequently used alternatives. Even someone as conservative as Solti conducting the Vienna Phil. (I was a bit surprised) moved the celli inboard (right center) for Shostakovich while leaving the basses on their conventional position.
 
I assume you mean Pachelbel's canon, writen during a time when ensemble layout (and instruments) were in flux. No surprise that the "authentic" performance crowd might ponder layout, along with tuning, bridge height, etc. Hell, they're still debating whether the "double bass" is a member of the viol or violin families.

True, layout in the US for most orchestras in most situation has cleaved to the basses right model, celli in front of them, but not didactically. And it's changing. In Europe, it is otherwise. Many quite respected, mainstream orchestras in Europe have adopted other layouts as standard or as frequently used alternatives. Even someone as conservative as Solti conducting the Vienna Phil. (I was a bit surprised) moved the celli inboard (right center) for Shostakovich while leaving the basses on their conventional position.

I wonder if things back then were any different than today, inasmuch as musicians have "gigs" and kinda wing it some, depending on venue and who shows up. I doubt it was that different. When you look at famous classical composers' writings, very few of them specified the placement of the orchestra (Mozart, Mahler?), and some specifically challenged that traditionalism (Berlioz jumps to mind). And conductors these days also use that aspect as differentiation. The debates between the "true defenders of baroque authenticity" (Labadie, Leppard, Pinnock et al) were revealing too.
 
I wonder if things back then were any different than today, inasmuch as musicians have "gigs" and kinda wing it some, depending on venue and who shows up. I doubt it was that different. When you look at famous classical composers' writings, very few of them specified the placement of the orchestra (Mozart, Mahler?), and some specifically challenged that traditionalism (Berlioz jumps to mind). And conductors these days also use that aspect as differentiation. The debates between the "true defenders of baroque authenticity" (Labadie, Leppard, Pinnock et al) were revealing too.
I'm sure a lot of renaissance and baroque gigs were played by whoever showed up. In grad school I was in an early music ensemble - instruments and singers. As singers were frequently absent, having paying gigs, we routinely got by with the forces at hand. I can remember one concert where so many singers were absent (as was the conductor) that instrumentalists were recruited to "fill in the gaps" in a 16 part a cappella mass. They got choice of parts, based on their most comfortable ranges. The remaining parts were then handed out to the rest of us. As a result, most of us were sight reading in performance. I believe on that occasion I sang an alto part. Long time ago: Ford was in the White House.
 
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Usually better. A CD I only recently heard is Mahler, Symphony # 4, Lorin Maazel directing the Vienna Philharmonic, CBS Masterworks MK 39072. The control engineer was Bud Graham, the remote technical supervisor was Tony Faulkner. Sony PCM 3324 digital recorder, B & K 4003 omnidirectional microphones. While everything is clearly audible and there is excellent stereo spread, there is a sense of depth and body to the sound rare in any recording.
I bought this one after reading this and it showed up today. I am very much a classical novice but this one does sound excellent to me. Great imaging, clear and clean, and very powerful dynamics. It still does not sound nearly as "big" as being there but for a recording very impressive. I was surprised it was from 1984, this recording puts all of the talk about the problems with early ADC's into perspective. While ADC's are cheaper and better today than 40 years ago it is apparent that in the right hands they got the job done.
 
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I bought this one after reading this and it showed up today. I am very much a classical novice but this one sounds does sound excellent to me. Great imaging, clear and clean, and very powerful dynamics. It still does not sound nearly as "big" as being there but for a recording very impressive. I was surprised it was from 1984, this recording puts all of the talk about the problems with early ADC's into perspective. While ADC's are cheaper and better today than 40 years ago it is apparent that in the right hands they got the job done. T
Recording is more art than science. And early ADCs sounded more like what was coming off the mixer than analog recorders, even back then. From what I've read, the Sony 3324 digital recorder was designed with a stationary recording head (unlike most other digital recorders that deployed helical scanning) and was capable of recording 24 tracks. I would suspect that recorder was an advance over the Sony 1610 used for many early digital recordings. The microphones were B & K 4003 omnis. They appear to have a slight dip in the lower treble followed by a + 3db rise centered at 15khz. Very smooth microphones, judging from other recordings I have heard.
 
A CD I only recently heard is Mahler, Symphony # 4, Lorin Maazel directing the Vienna Philharmonic, CBS Masterworks MK 39072. ... While everything is clearly audible and there is excellent stereo spread, there is a sense of depth and body to the sound rare in any recording.

I have that recording, and I agree wholeheartedly about the spread. I hear nothing beyond normal depth, however. I've tried both headphones and speakers.

However, I listen nearfield. I wonder whether that has a lot to do with it or not.

Jim
 
I have that recording, and I agree wholeheartedly about the spread. I hear nothing beyond normal depth, however. I've tried both headphones and speakers.

However, I listen nearfield. I wonder whether that has a lot to do with it or not.

Jim
Maybe. I listen to tower speakers nearfield. I'm about a meter from the speakers, they have a spread of about 5 feet and are turned out slightly - they are not directly on-axis. I'm in a small room. I've also got a powered sub. Some recordings sound real flat but this one doesn't, at least to these ears.
 
Hi, out of curiosity, do you find nearfield listening with guite wide speaker spacing (azimuth angle greater than 30deg) good for classical in general? I do not listen classical, but based on other music I listen to I could imagine this could be the better setup, less effect from local (small) room and still bigness to it.
 
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Specific for me soundstage had nothing to do with imagination. I did got soundstage when i had a close to excellent acoustic listening room. Condition had to be met like linear audio gear within 2 a 3 db frequency response (specific speakers anechoicly tested) an enough juice (depending on your room volume) which is not that hard to come by an as i mentioned excellent room acoustics with a reflection time well less than 1 second. Than correct placement speakers. If you have bad room acoustics (like me now) use DSP.
IMO all the necessary information for soundstage is in a quality recording it is you gear an room acoustics that has to be up for the task to reveal soundstage IMO not your imagination.

For me icing on the cake when i bought time alignt/phase coherent speakers by build in combination with DSP an using a more or less near field listning distance using farfield colum speakers.

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Hi, out of curiosity, do you find nearfield listening with guite wide speaker spacing (azimuth angle greater than 30deg) good for classical in general? I do not listen classical, but based on other music I listen to I could imagine this could be the better setup, less effect from local (small) room and still bigness to it.
Yes. I've had speaker setups that didn't have the speakers as close and wide apart. That didn't resolve the inner voices as well. What I'm using now also is better for pop productions as well.

FWIW, my speakers are Infinity's Primus 250. They were in production some 20 years ago or so, with a number of updates later. They are supposed to have a lower limit of about 50 hz. I'm using a Sonus Son of Sub powered subwoofer. The room is 10' by 12' by 8'. The Yamaha AVR I'm using delivers 100 watts into 2 channels, has a line-level sub out.
 
Yeah reduced room sound clears it up, auditory system pays attention to direct sound and perceptually there is better localization, clarity, engagement happens and all the adjectives one can come up with :) even envelopment can now be there, except in a domestic livingroom it might not be that impressive. Bit wider spacing with speakers makes the sound stage natural width, compensates lack of early lateral reflections that usually widen the stage with bigger listening triangle. Equilateral triangle in a such small listening distance feels too narrow.

I've setup my listening position so that leaning forward I'm in the nearfield in this perceptual sense like you, and if I lean back it's the more traditional home hifi sound with early reflections affecting, but where localization and clarity are not as good, no envelopment and the sound is just in front of me. This is also more relaxing sound and some recordings really seem to work better here, those that could be bit too intensive listened close, the ones with wild panning for example. I find this listening position quite nice, because I can now change the sound at will, per mood, per recording. If one wants either sound always, then something else might beat it. After all, it seems to be quite easy to listen at what listening distance perceptual change happens between the two. I think it's basically auditory system paying attention to the direct sound, or not, David Griesinger Limit of Localization Distance stuff describes it quite accurately so I think its that. No imagination required, this stuff happens unconscious parts of brain.
 
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Let's attack this subject from a different angle.
Let's say that you have a stereo recording that you know well, and YOU think that it has good soundstage, played in normal stereo in your room.
1) Play it in mono through one speaker only. Can you hear the soundstage? I would guess that the answer is ,"No!".
2) Play it in mono, but through the two speakers that you have, placed in the same locations that you always use. What I'm talking about here is playing L+R through the right speaker and L+R through the left speaker; two-speaker mono, not stereo. Do you hear a soundstage?
3) Can you force yourself, by whatever means at your disposal, to hear a soundstage with the two speakers each playing a mono signal?

If you can, then the only mechanism that I can think of allowing you to do this is the force of memory, which is imagination.
If you cannot, then I would posit that the soundstage derives from a conventional stereo signal and NOT from imagination.

Am I wrong?

Jim
 
Let's attack this subject from a different angle.
Let's say that you have a stereo recording that you know well, and YOU think that it has good soundstage, played in normal stereo in your room.
1) Play it in mono through one speaker only. Can you hear the soundstage? I would guess that the answer is ,"No!".
2) Play it in mono, but through the two speakers that you have, placed in the same locations that you always use. What I'm talking about here is playing L+R through the right speaker and L+R through the left speaker; two-speaker mono, not stereo. Do you hear a soundstage?
3) Can you force yourself, by whatever means at your disposal, to hear a soundstage with the two speakers each playing a mono signal?

If you can, then the only mechanism that I can think of allowing you to do this is the force of memory, which is imagination.
If you cannot, then I would posit that the soundstage derives from a conventional stereo signal and NOT from imagination.

Am I wrong?

Jim
You are correct JT it can be enhanced speaker placement or changed negatively by room modes and reflections. Soundstage is a product of the the recording process which is by far the most important part of the audiophile experience next to the performance and the music.
 
Let's attack this subject from a different angle.
Let's say that you have a stereo recording that you know well, and YOU think that it has good soundstage, played in normal stereo in your room.
1) Play it in mono through one speaker only. Can you hear the soundstage? I would guess that the answer is ,"No!".
2) Play it in mono, but through the two speakers that you have, placed in the same locations that you always use. What I'm talking about here is playing L+R through the right speaker and L+R through the left speaker; two-speaker mono, not stereo. Do you hear a soundstage?
3) Can you force yourself, by whatever means at your disposal, to hear a soundstage with the two speakers each playing a mono signal?

If you can, then the only mechanism that I can think of allowing you to do this is the force of memory, which is imagination.
If you cannot, then I would posit that the soundstage derives from a conventional stereo signal and NOT from imagination.

Am I wrong?

Jim
No there is no way I -or anyone- can hear a soundstage in decent classical recordings when stuff operates in mono through both speakers. The notion is ludicrous honestly.
 
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