Does Ethan's Null Tester Prove His Claim?

[solderdude]

What's your Y-axis in this plot?

It is noted above the axis. dB (SPL of course)

I read there is a dBA versus dB SPL war

I read there is a loudness war.

 

[Tks]

Well my most expensive cable is a pair of Sommer Eclipse XLR. As for my setup, I use DAC/amp (2-in-1). I basically don't buy cables. I don't trust none professional brands.

So my issue on this is purely the methodology check. I don't really care if someone wants to buy a $1000 usd cable. I won't talk them out of it. If money can buy happiness, why destroy it.

The fact is, I have never said Ethan is right or wrong about cable being the same; or my opinion on this matter.

I cant even begin to address the technical nature of the aspects you bring up about cable differences. But as for asking "why destroy it", that would be a question with ethical consideration perhaps. To that I can speak at length. But the basic gist would be the same reason you would dispel any other illusion especially when monetary exchanges are part of the equation, because it has a high probability of someone being swindled and them not knowing it. Scale that to a societal level, like the real world, you then have the perpetuation of a myth as fact. Hypothetically there could be differences in reality on the atomic/electromangetic level and such, but in the real world once economics are at play, any con-men will take that, and exaggerate it. And then you have the birth of ardent stratification and group formations (sort of like religions perhaps). Audio is one such field where a concerning portion (especially those with more money than brains) have created a situation where their nonsense machinations on the matter pollute the pervading ideas of the general public that sometimes then decides to get into audio like audiophiles do.

I'm sure I don't need to write up a formal syllogism of why having nonsensical belief left to foster among a group only causes trouble (in the same way anything built on lies usually does in various magnitudes).

But basically put, I am more concerned with the truth on this matter, than the happiness of a few people who exhibit all the forms of critical thinking inhibition, but have the dangerous societal position of monetary/influential power (this wouldn't be a problem if this was in a society that didn't worship a person or a company based on it's net-worth). I simply don't want to see others swindled like they were, and coming to conclusions they have no basis for. That's why I'd not only destroy it, but punish those that engage in it's perpetuation to dissuade them from spreading such unsubstantiated claims that are no more true seeing as how they're all ridiculous exaggerations.

As for your last sentence, you may want to give your take soon. Otherwise it may resemble trolling. Imagine smack talking about a product a scientist/inventor makes for a while. And not giving your take on his overarching philosophy on why he created the device itself. That sort of approach only irks on-lookers as it seems like you're playing coy. Personally I have no take on the matter as I'm not educated enough to give my opinions on circuits and things of that nature, so don't think I harbor any ill will here. Just wanted to chime in on that part of the quote I left in bold, as it was something more up my alley.

 

[pkane]

So I am getting on oscilloscope today. Before I get back with my test results, here is a discussion on Ethan's test procedure:

Ethan's assumption (that he was to support with his experiment) was that, cable passed signal the same. Based on that, if you had exactly the same cables hooked up, any difference would be due to channel imbalance of null tester, correct?

So to calibrate that, We should use the same cables, and null out signal difference once before doing cable swap, correct?

Now experiment start, we swap cables. Question 3 , is it justifiable to touch any knobs that could affect channel balance once null tester was calibrated?

In Ethan's video, he got new cable on, turn the knobs, null achieved. [Calibration] --> Then he changed cable, null broke. [ Doesn't that already prove cable newly installed is different from previous one?] --> He turned knobs again, null achieved [re-calibration] --> He said cables were the same [Questionable. Previous step only proves he can re-calibrate the difference. His instrument can null out signal difference smaller than 2.2mV perfectly].

Another question is, how does knobs affect the difference (reserved for another discussion).

Why is recalibration questionable? Ethan has to recalibrate the null because different wires have different resistance. When first plugged in, you can hear (and see) the null containing some of the music going across both wires. By adjusting the pot he dials the levels to the point where that music disappears completely. This indicates a perfect null if only noise at the level of around -100dB is left at the output. What's questionable about this?

This is how the null tester works. In the digital null tester I wrote (Deltawave) the calibration is done automatically but there is also a manual override where you can adjust it yourself if you don't like the calculated result. Perfectly reasonable. If you get a better null, you found a better level match. That's the only thing Ethan tweaked in the video.

 

[pkane]

I see what he is trying to prove,. He doesn't mean cables pass sound the same. He tried to prove that once you matched dB/SPL, difference is not audible. This part I am not to going to argue with.

However I don't think it translate well into in real world practice, as high quality hardware is required for this. For example, if you look at his audioexpress writing, his volume pot is a stepped attenuator, which is miles better than anything commonly used in consumer electronics. I won't be surprised matching dB/SPL with average consumer electronics can sometimes introduce some audible issues, especially in headphone systems. I currently already swapped out a few inferior volume pots in my gears, however I cannot used a stepped one in my gear.

Consumer headphone amps that have a stepped attentuator or something similar... cost much more than a $700 USD cable... Yes I mean that benchmark one.

But you're still missing the fact that he actually did get a near-perfect null. If his circuit was as badly mismatched as you say, it wouldn't null properly, there would be a lot of music going through to the output. We can see and hear that there's music due to just the slightest variation in R of the cables. When he calibrates the null with same cables first, then plugs in different ones and the null is lost -- that's caused by the difference in signal level across the two cables. You know the nulling is working when he adjusts the gain to match, and only noise comes through after being amplified by +80dB.

I did a similar test with balanced interconnects using digital capture and DeltaWave. The results were better than a -100dB null with only white noise as the output of the null. My ADC is capable of capturing with THD+N of around -110dB. When testing the same cable against itself, the null was -110dB, which is the best my set up can do.

 

[pkane]

I got multiple denials on digital approach on this. Digital gears are somewhat completed in nature.

Not sure what you are saying here. Digital approach works, and in some cases works better, for example allowing you to compare amplifiers, DACs, ADCs, etc. For cable comparisons, Ethan's hardware approach is simpler and has fewer things that could go wrong. On the other hand, I got very similar null results using the digital capture approach when comparing analog interconnects.

 

[solderdude]

However I don't think it translate well into in real world practice, as high quality hardware is required for this. For example, if you look at his audioexpress writing, his volume pot is a stepped attenuator, which is miles better than anything commonly used in consumer electronics. I won't be surprised matching dB/SPL with average consumer electronics can sometimes introduce some audible issues, especially in headphone systems. I currently already swapped out a few inferior volume pots in my gears, however I cannot used a stepped one in my gear.

Consumer headphone amps that have a high quality stepped attentuator or something similar... cost much more than a $700 USD cable... Yes I mean that benchmark one. That's a hefty priced equipment to get so one can enjoy cheap cables...

A stepped attenuator is only superior when it comes to channel imbalance between L and R. As in the test he only uses 1 channel (L or R) the usage of the chosen attenuator is of no consequence in this case.

 

[solderdude]

I don't know why I got bashed when I said I can approach it digitally. So I cannot answer your question.

You said it were simpler (less components) than Ethans approach. This is not the case.
When nulling cables by recording it you may very well NOT get a perfect null because the ADC itself also adds distortion and noise (just like the opamps) but is bandwidth limited as well.
Only when recording 2 cables on the exact same input or with a very good ADC you can get the results Paul obtained and need the correct software to compensate for possible clock drift.

As Paul already mentioned the null tester is simpler to use.

To null amplifiers (DACs cannot be nulled directly) you cannot use Ethan's device directly but need is huge device.
I can do this with my null tester though with some trickery (null amplifiers that is)
Back in those days I had to record the nulls on a tape recorder and could not analyze how we can do now (for peanuts)

 

[solderdude]

You ignored a few other things. At least, by far I haven't get a 9mm pot that has exactly 10K or same R in two channels. I didn't bother testing how well it tracked. I am bothered since I have balanced amp.

That's what I mentioned.. you talk about channel matching between 2 channels and perhaps absolute resistance values.
This is completely not important for the nulling process as onely 1 channel is used.
The null pot is linear and can be in any position. It does not have to be the middle position at all. The middle position is NOT a measure of performance quality in the null test.

 

[solderdude]

Please also quote pkane on this one. I think if he has a good ADC, which is probably going to achieve -110dB noise floor as well.

They all add distortion. But ADC gives ability to work with data afterwards.

pkane = Paul so he was clearly mentioned.

 

[solderdude]

I assumed you read up on the link I gave you regarding Paul's excellent software.
I am pretty sure the name Paul has been dropped there a few times in replies.
When you researched it you could have known.

 

[pkane]

So you are assuming I know who you know? Or I know Paul is pkane?

You must be looking on a mobile phone or have signature display disabled. All my posts are signed with my name

 

[Blumlein 88]

Pkane is paul, and here is the link to his software if you aren't seeing signatures.

https://deltaw.org
https://distortaudio.org

Deltawave is a digital nulling software with a number of useful additional features.

Distort lets you build custom distortion profiles and see if they are audible or hear what they sound like for yourself.

 

[Get a hearing test]

Maybe difference between HD600 and HD650 cables. These two are commonly considered different.

Can confirm. Just swapped original hd600 cable to factory replacement hd650 one and the sound is different in a bad way. Its like a pale imitation of what hd600 sounds like lol cant believe its that much worse. Shame cuz hd650 cable seems way better quality. Guess ill have to buy hd600 one.
Best i can describe it is that it doesnst move the driver in the same way. So the back round stuff and the highs are muted noticeably and in their place the tone is off. Bass is stronger though oddly. Shouldve went with the right cable thought i could save 5 bucks lol. Damnit. New hd600 cable should be here in a few weeks. Which also reminds me to clean my ear wax. Just worried that the replacement cable is only 1.5m and original is 3m.

 

[solderdude]

Can confirm. Just swapped original hd600 cable to factory replacement hd650 one and the sound is different in a bad way. Its like a pale imitation of what hd600 sounds like lol cant believe its that much worse. Shame cuz hd650 cable seems way better quality. Guess ill have to buy hd600 one.
Best i can describe it is that it doesnst move the driver in the same way. So the back round stuff and the highs are muted noticeably. Bass is stronger though oddly. Shouldve went with the right cable thought i could save 10 bucks lol. Damnit.

You need to get a hearing test

What would make them sound any different, providing one is not broken ?

 

[Get a hearing test]

You need to get a hearing test

What would make them sound any different, providing one is not broken ?

Provided the new cable is working as it should, no clue. Probably should ask sennheiser engineers why they bundle hd600 cable with hd600 and hd650 with hd650 hmm?

 

[solderdude]

What are the electrical differences between these cables ?
You made the claim, I already measured those cables so I know.

There is no cable (other than the ones I make) that have any filter action so what you describe is physically impossible given the test results I have.

Here is some more discussion on headphone cables
and more

 

[Get a hearing test]

What are the electrical differences between these cables ?
You made the claim, I already measured those cables so I know.

There is no cable (other than the ones I make) that have any filter action so what you describe is physically impossible given the test results I have.

Here is some more discussion on headphone cables
and more

What i heard went in line with what other people posted online a decade ago so. I can also do a blind test but its pointless. Listening same sound snipped 20 times its clear the hd650 cable sounds like its butchered. Youre testing electrical stuff, it should be pretty much identical and yet its not. It would be better to test sound.

 

[SIY]

What i heard went in line with what other people posted online a decade ago so. I can also do a blind test but its pointless.

It's Make-Believe Time!

 

[Get a hearing test]

It's Make-Believe Time!

Ill do it once the hd600 cable arrives. Youll see AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA..........

 

[scott wurcer]

What i heard went in line with what other people posted online a decade ago so.

I don't get it, I just looked at a Head-Fi thread from 2008 and virtually everyone "prefered" the HD650 cable. Thinking Sennheiser engineered a cable for anything but mechanical/connector issues is a long stretch. As usual an exhaustive search on these matters shows no consistent results. BTW my HD600 cable being thin failed from simple fatigue at the termination.