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Does 'envelopment' exist? Can it be measured?

The question is how many albums is recorded in atmos or carefully remixed for atmos release, and how many is just automated batch upmixed (from stereo) or automated batch remixed (from 5.1/7.1) from record label to get along with the spatial audio buzzword recently.
Not as many as you'd like to insinuate. Apple Music, the biggest supplier of streamed atmos,

"Apple Music focuses on native, object-based Dolby Atmos mixes rather than user-side "upmixed" stereo, requiring creators to submit dedicated Atmos files. While Apple policy prohibits artificial upmixing from stereo for submission, some user reports suggest varied quality in how spatial audio renders, and others suggest some "upmixed" content might pass through."

Would love to experience what having all channels full range is like however.
Me too. I thought about hanging 4 more JBL 3600s from my ceiling but fear the roof structure wouldn't support them.. I really would like to hear what some have done with a swarm of Genelecs in the studios like Steven Wilsons. As I've said here often, it's more important than some would like you to believe to have excellently matched speaker for all channels, most specially for the bed channels. Expensive yes, but still crucial none the less.

Trying to argue that vinyl is superior to digital is already foolish. But trying to make that case to Dr. Floyd Toole is unbelievably foolish. Please go back to your cave where you can drag your rock through plastic all you want, the rest of us have moved on! It's off topic anyway!
Amen
 
Now, this is topic dear to my heart, so thank you ;-). We are aligned on native formats comparison.

Re upmixing - I think of it as “active acoustics”, complementing Planar Bass/Waveforming. My target is not to get NeuralX type of algo, but to extract exactly this envelopment and ambience out of stereo. Technically, I am using individualized Auromatic based algo, as it has best L-C-R decoding, with 17 channels [incl LFE]. It was first setup by calibrator and meanwhile I have learned which lever to push to get what I want. Trinnov allows for flexible adjusting - e.g. I can address my Front WIdes, via Auro, even when this is not native to the format. Upmix is generating those enveloping lateral reflections and improving “spinorama” of L-R speakers by compensating for horizontal dispersion shortcomings. Lot of individual filters, lot of deviations to standard Auro - be it volume, delays and some secret sauce in bass management. My room is also acoustically designed to support this type of setup - lot of diffusion, targeted range limited absorption, targeting t20/t30 with constant. until 500Hz and then gradual increase into lower frequencies.

And of course - Planar Bass [Planar Wavefoming] - clearly anchored directionally to front soundstage and filling it, no “collapse” or whatever drama.
Clean Group Delay down to 20Hz, good impulse behavior and uniform first -20dB decay and it offers [in my opinion] superior sound quality - it is making bass reflective and not resonant, which is quality you will not get with resonances and nulls all over the place. Linear rise and decay - LF fundamental frequencies arrive aligned with 2nd/3rd harmonics, that carry spatial information, so yes, you get precisely located bass, you get Billie Eilish and her impressive bass gimmicks.

FWIW - I got most improvements in envelopment when I have taken care of 100-200Hz range properly.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with you about Planar Bass/Waveforming. I have heard some well-done double bass array setup (2x3 subs per front/back wall), and I agree with you that the bass quality is really impressive. Trinnov's Waveforming is the upgraded approach of double bass array, so I am sure that it is great. If I built a home theater (not yet) then it will be my choice since bass in movie is more likely be mono. But for music, when the long and persistence history of non-standard approach, I am not so sure that it will be answer for every case. But anyway, I will try that approach in the future and compare to distributed stereo bass. With something so empirical like audio reproduction, experiment is only way to know.

For upmix, I am not as positive as you, because the modern upmix software I encountered like NeuroX, DSU, and the basic Auro-3D got from receiver does not work out for me. Possibly the advanced one you used can be the real game changer, but since I have not heard it yet, it is difficult for me to believe fully on that. Right now, for stereo content, I am pretty satisfied with a pair of constant directivity dipole 4-way speakers. Based on my humble experience, for free standing speaker, multi and near-constant directional dispersion (cardioid, dipole, omnidirectional) in the range from 60-300Hz is extremely important to get better envelopment. I have another good 2-way speakers (6.5" midwoofer + 1" waveguide tweeter + 8" passive radiator) plus subwoofer but its envelopment is still not as good as my dipole speaker.
 
Not as many as you'd like to insinuate. Apple Music, the biggest supplier of streamed atmos,

"Apple Music focuses on native, object-based Dolby Atmos mixes rather than user-side "upmixed" stereo, requiring creators to submit dedicated Atmos files. While Apple policy prohibits artificial upmixing from stereo for submission, some user reports suggest varied quality in how spatial audio renders, and others suggest some "upmixed" content might pass through."

This statement can only indicate that Apple will not do the batch upmixing, but it does not means record labels will not do.
 
For low frequency envelopment in domestic listening rooms, this was what Dr Griesinger proposed.
For concert hall acoustics, there is a measurement LEV. See this for more details: https://www.aes.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/AES123heyser-Beranek.pdf

So, in other words - "Make it sound and feel like Musikverein and you have your envelopment".

But then, I am afraid, just placing two subs on sides will not suffice. And on top - from I would say Row 20 Parterre, you don't localize a sh..t but you are enveloped to the deepest depths of your soul. I know the hall intimately [my preferred is Row 10 +- center., there you can still lock in which section is left-right, but is more of that you can see the musicians.

1776262952711.png
 
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So, in other words - "Make it sound and feel like Musikverein and you have your envelopment".

But then, I am afraid, just placing two subs on sides will not suffice. And on top - from I would say Row 20 Parterre, you don't localize a sh..t but you are enveloped to the deepest depths of your soul. I know the hall intimately [my preferred is Row 10 +- center., there you can still lock in which section is left-right, but is more of that you can see the musicians.

View attachment 525101
The LEV calculations relate to frequencies 125 Hz and above. https://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/ICA2010/cdrom-ICA2010/papers/p296.pdf

I have been at the Vienna hall for rehearsals and a performance and personally found it overly "enveloping". If I had heard what I heard from a surround sound system I would have turned the surrounds down a bit. I heard transient sounds rattling from the front to the back of the shoebox hall. I was underwhelmed - so maybe I'm broken:(
 
The LEV calculations relate to frequencies 125 Hz and above. https://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/ICA2010/cdrom-ICA2010/papers/p296.pdf

I have been at the Vienna hall for rehearsals and a performance and personally found it overly "enveloping". If I had heard what I heard from a surround sound system I would have turned the surrounds down a bit. I heard transient sounds rattling from the front to the back of the shoebox hall. I was underwhelmed - so maybe I'm broken:(
Fidji only showed part of the slide :)
LEV.png
 
I have been at the Vienna hall for rehearsals and a performance and personally found it overly "enveloping". If I had heard what I heard from a surround sound system I would have turned the surrounds down a bit. I heard transient sounds rattling from the front to the back of the shoebox hall. I was underwhelmed - so maybe I'm broken:(
They should have called DG to install LARES ;-)
 
They should have called DG to install LARES ;-)
LARES is a wonderful system for adding reverb, but one starts with a deadish hall for best results. I wish the LARES LIGHT system had reached the market - I thought it was brilliant for placing a listener in a small room into what was a credible hall. Then one played the stereo system. It was a jaw dropper in the demos I used to run at Harman.
 
LARES is a wonderful system for adding reverb, but one starts with a deadish hall for best results. I wish the LARES LIGHT system had reached the market - I thought it was brilliant for placing a listener in a small room into what was a credible hall. Then one played the stereo system. It was a jaw dropper in the demos I used to run at Harman.
My memory is probably failing me, but I though DG also used it for over reverberant spaces, to improve clarity etc. I may have to do some rereading.

Btw, a rather wordy read on what I would consider, still an "upmix" if you will https://www.beesikk.nl/JohnBeerends/2025americanScientistBeerendsEverdingenFinalPaper.pdf
 
Some basic questions:

Is LEV only of a room/space?

Can it be perceived reliably?

Also Does wider directivity increase LEV?
 
This statement can only indicate that Apple will not do the batch upmixing, but it does not means record labels will not do
Can you provide supportable evidence of any reputable label doing so?
If Apple won't stream them, for what reason or purpose would any label go to the trouble?
Atmos TrueHD mixes released on BluRay and download are closely reviewed by the target consumers and would be crucified in public for doing so. As it stands many releases get very poor reviews for not being "discrete" enough. If you follow the surround music enthusiast sites such as QuadraphonicQuad and read the reviews there I honestly can't remember a single case of a release being "caught" using such a despicable practice.
OTOH I'm sure there were cases of "someone" trying it or Apple wouldn't have created a policy against it?
But being a 50 year surround enthusiast I've can't remember any documented cases being discussed.
YMMV
 
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Some basic questions:

Is LEV only of a room/space?

Can it be perceived reliably?

Also Does wider directivity increase LEV?
There is a big basic difference between concert halls and listening rooms. The large concert halls create the envelopment (LEV is supposed to tell us how much for each hall). So LEV IMHO isn't a relevant measurement for listening rooms. We are mostly discussing whether it is necessary, possible, and how to recreate the envelopment sensations in our small (domestically sized) listening rooms similar to those we would have experienced in the real halls, in particular for frequencies below ~150 Hz.

Keep in mind that we experience envelopment from frequency components to much higher frequencies (I think much of the audible frequency range), hence the question of how much we are actually missing if we leave out the lowest 2 or 3 octaves.
 
The LEV calculations relate to frequencies 125 Hz and above. https://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/ICA2010/cdrom-ICA2010/papers/p296.pdf

I have been at the Vienna hall for rehearsals and a performance and personally found it overly "enveloping". If I had heard what I heard from a surround sound system I would have turned the surrounds down a bit. I heard transient sounds rattling from the front to the back of the shoebox hall. I was underwhelmed - so maybe I'm broken:(

Oh, yes, it is like playing vinyl through tubes and adding in some harmonics on top ;-). I think Musikverein is on the extreme end of lushness/envelopment, what makes it great is linearity of envelopment, for lack of better word. Very aromatic, heavy, but still exquisite food. Rich evening perfume.

And it requires performers to adapt, I have been to my share of concerts with big names that ended in underwhelming experiences. Hall will forgive and support lot of things but it can get ugly very quickly - it requires orchestra and conductor to respect the hall - you need to play tempos differently, precisely, get more space between notes to let the music breathe and for sure lot of other stuff. But if it all clicks, the hall delivers out of body experience. My first concert there felt into this category {Harnoncourt] and since then I am looking for this state, when one understands the music on a deepest level, and Musikverein is the place, where I have experienced it quite often. So, in a sense, the one broken here is me ;-). And don’t take me seriously, when I describe something as “very dry”, probably it sounds about right. One of the reasons why I am so deep into surround as it is the most effective way for me to get as near as possible to what one can experience in good concert hall.

Personally - I try to get to yellow zone, and if not possible, then blue, I rather sacrifice 2-3 rows from optimum, but I need to be max 2 seats from the center. Reflected energy is already very diffused and I can still connect what I see with what I hear, music coming from front, filling whole field of view, still able to layer the sections depth wise, thanks to sight helping me.

1776268359093.png


OT: actually it would be interesting to understand how much of the whole sensation in Musikverein is visuals. I can see people behave with respect, as size, all the gold and history hits them.

1776268854766.png
 
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Some basic questions:

Is LEV only of a room/space?

Can it be perceived reliably?

Also Does wider directivity increase LEV?
LEV is a large space phenomenon, requiring long delays (80-100 ms being common) for reflections to arrive and from optimum angles (+/- 60 deg) - all described in my books. Best reproduced through multichannel systems (Section 7.2 in 4th edition), 5 being enough it seems.
Long delayed sounds are in stereo recordings, but in stereo in small rooms they are delivered in the direct sound as well as the reflected sounds - two ears and a brain know the difference. This is the advantage of multichannel. However, flawed reflections are better than none. It is the adjacent sidewalls that do the work, so wider dispersion speakers add to the spatial effect, but LEV may or may not benefit. It depends on the frequency-dependent directivity of the loudspeakers. At the angles relevant to side wall reflections many loudspeakers have seriously compromised frequency responses. Multichannel wins.
 
LARES is a wonderful system for adding reverb, but one starts with a deadish hall for best results. I wish the LARES LIGHT system had reached the market - I thought it was brilliant for placing a listener in a small room into what was a credible hall. Then one played the stereo system. It was a jaw dropper in the demos I used to run at Harman.

Is Auromatic as upmixer not conceptually trying to achieve something similar to LARES? Adding reverb for immersion/envelopment, incl. back and ceiling reflections simulation.
 
Is Auromatic as upmixer not conceptually trying to achieve something similar to LARES? Adding reverb for immersion/envelopment, incl. back and ceiling reflections simulation.
No. They are very different processes. LARES has microphones that pick up sounds in the room and to them adds synthesized reflections delivered to appropriate dedicated loudspeakers with the goal of putting the listener in that room into a larger space. Playing live music or stereo or any other audio system or source in that room puts everyone into a perceptual "large" space that can be "designed". One can walk into a LARES light equipped home theater, clap the hands, and feel as though one was in a concert hall - or ar least a much larger space.

Auromatic just steers sounds already in recordings to existing Atmos channels. Because there are loudspeaker sources in different locations there is an inevitable increase in the sensation of space, but additional reverb may or may not be added. It is not under your control - the mixer decides. But it is a multichannel system, and multichannel, if well done, wins.
 
PS I've cut back on buying physical Stuff, is there an electronic version of your book I can read on stock Android?
It says so here . . .

 
Envelopment for me is a mental state. I've experienced some pretty amazing envelopment from just a mono bluetooth speaker around a campfire. I've gotten it from hyper neutral monitors and little tiny full range drivers. I don't really know what the mechanism for getting to that state is but I know it's not really speaker dependent for me (within reason).
 
Not as many as you'd like to insinuate. Apple Music, the biggest supplier of streamed atmos,

"Apple Music focuses on native, object-based Dolby Atmos mixes rather than user-side "upmixed" stereo, requiring creators to submit dedicated Atmos files. While Apple policy prohibits artificial upmixing from stereo for submission, some user reports suggest varied quality in how spatial audio renders, and others suggest some "upmixed" content might pass through."


Me too. I thought about hanging 4 more JBL 3600s from my ceiling but fear the roof structure wouldn't support them.. I really would like to hear what some have done with a swarm of Genelecs in the studios like Steven Wilsons. As I've said here often, it's more important than some would like you to believe to have excellently matched speaker for all channels, most specially for the bed channels. Expensive yes, but still crucial none the less.


Amen
instead of more ceiling , focus on floor in-floor or smaller JBL control 1 or control series , focus on the floor is the one place dolby lazy labs not bothered with for 15 years and they call , atmos 3d sound ? do some matrix with extra decoder avr cheap , PLIIx connected to the surround RCA m get the idea ? if you don't then carry on with substandard boring dolby labs atmos
 
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