Does dual sub matter if both subs have equal dips/peaks in REW room sim?

[sigbergaudio]

Maybe not "modern" but it's what is a truly high-end subwoofer. "Modern" speakere isn't high-end either.

So I guess it comes down what you want. "Modern" or the highest quality.

To ensure I understand before I comment: Are you saying a subwoofer or speaker with DSP can't be high-end?

 

[Sokel]

To ensure I understand before I comment: Are you saying a subwoofer or speaker with DSP can't be high-end?

It can I think.
But the DSP implementation has to be RME-grade for not to introduce the usual can of worms (noise, distortion, freq shift, etc) and be a truly low distortion/noise one.
On top of that filter stacking for further integration has to be very careful.

Bad implementations is probably the reason that DSP corrected speakers and subs are called "cheaters" .

Edit: Here's an interesting reading about it:

https://firmware-developments.com/WEB/DOC/REF/ZauchaIIR_AES.pdf

 

[Geertidow]

An identical sub symmetrically placed on the left and right side of the room will not only increase possible distortion-free loudness levels but also stereo bass and envelopment is a thing for music. Since your speakers roll at 80Hz, I would consider it. Until then try to place the single sub as central as possible.

You need to work on your speakers placement a bit. They are not symmetrical and have a couple of inches differences to walls. I don't know your room dimensions but the graph looks like the distance to ceiling are different? Are you not using identical stands?

Remarkable that you can see that.
We are still awaiting the cabinet to place it all in, takes a number of weeks. This is the temporary setup.

If I move the sub to the middle, will your EQ still work reasonably well?

 

[OCA]

will your EQ still work reasonably well?

Probably not. I can re-do it when you finalize everything...

 

[Bjorn]

To ensure I understand before I comment: Are you saying a subwoofer or speaker with DSP can't be high-end?

I'm saying the highest quality is using an external amp and one single external DSP for mains and subwoofers.

 

[dualazmak]

I'm saying the highest quality is using an external amp and one single external DSP for mains and subwoofers.

Essentially and generally, I agree with you since I have been intensively implementing such approach (ref. here #931 on my project thread); even though my L&R large-heavy subwoofers, YAMAHA YST-SW1000 (48 kg each, ref. here), is active one having 120 W powerful dedicated amplifier in it.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I'm saying the highest quality is using an external amp and one single external DSP for mains and subwoofers.

It's ridiculous to say that something with a built-in amp can't be high-end. Are you actively (no pun intended) trying to make an enemy out of all the other manufacturers on this forum?

 

[Bjorn]

It's ridiculous to say that something with a built-in amp can't be high-end. Are you actively (no pun intended) trying to make an enemy out of all the other manufacturers on this forum?

High-end means the highest quality. Which is what I described because it gives the lowest delay, lowest distortion, and often the highest SPL (though the latter depends).
Didn't say built amp can't work well but there are some drawbacks.

 

[sigbergaudio]

High-end means the highest quality. Which is what I described because it gives the lowest delay, lowest distortion, and often the highest SPL (though the latter depends).
Didn't say built amp can't work well but there are some drawbacks.

You are using thinly veiled tricks to try to imply that your own design is perfect and the highest quality of all speakers out there, while talking down everything else.
Another example, where you list all the features of your own speakers as a mandatory list of high-end, implying everything that doesn't fit the bill isn't high-end, which of course is not true at all:

What do expensive speakers sound like?

if you tally up shipping, taxes, reasonable marketing expenses, overhead (offices, warehouses, etc), the retailer's share, the distributor's share, etc. then you start to wonder how they can stay in business at 30%. Yes, I see now, this is why internet-direct, speaker engineers like Dave...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You are free to carry on of course, but I suggest this is not a great look.

 

[Geertidow]

You are using thinly veiled tricks to try to imply that your own design is perfect and the highest quality of all speakers out there, while talking down everything else.
Another example, where you list all the features of your own speakers as a mandatory list of high-end, implying everything that doesn't fit the bill isn't high-end, which of course is not true at all:

What do expensive speakers sound like?

if you tally up shipping, taxes, reasonable marketing expenses, overhead (offices, warehouses, etc), the retailer's share, the distributor's share, etc. then you start to wonder how they can stay in business at 30%. Yes, I see now, this is why internet-direct, speaker engineers like Dave...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You are free to carry on of course, but I suggest this is not a great look.

Perhaps something for another topic?

 

[Keith_W]

Boys!! Stop fighting!! Geez, I thought Norwegians were chill!

Anyway @Bjorn I am curious why you think that an external amp is superior to a built-in one. Surely the only thing that matters is whether the amp is adequate to power the subwoofer or not?

I understand and agree that subwoofers should not have built-in DSP. DSP is better if it is implemented upstream, and having DSP built-in to the subwoofer is redundant - I don't want to pay for a feature that I am going to bypass.

 

[Bjorn]

You are using thinly veiled tricks to try to imply that your own design is perfect and the highest quality of all speakers out there, while talking down everything else.
Another example, where you list all the features of your own speakers as a mandatory list of high-end, implying everything that doesn't fit the bill isn't high-end, which of course is not true at all:

What do expensive speakers sound like?

if you tally up shipping, taxes, reasonable marketing expenses, overhead (offices, warehouses, etc), the retailer's share, the distributor's share, etc. then you start to wonder how they can stay in business at 30%. Yes, I see now, this is why internet-direct, speaker engineers like Dave...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You are free to carry on of course, but I suggest this is not a great look.

Nonsense. I have a subwoofer I plan to sell with built in amps/DSP and probably others in the future too.
But I guess saying the truth isn't always welcomed.

 

[dualazmak]

I assume this thread would not be the right/proper place for two "Audio Companies" discuss/argue their stances and policies; maybe derailing from the scope of OP...

 

[sigbergaudio]

I understand and agree that subwoofers should not have built-in DSP. DSP is better if it is implemented upstream, and having DSP built-in to the subwoofer is redundant - I don't want to pay for a feature that I am going to bypass.

If you build your own subwoofer you are free to implement it any way you like of course. For a commercial product this doesn't make sense. A subwoofer has crossover functionality like high pass, low pass, limiting and possibly other tuning. It's not better to implement this as a passive solution, and you can't trust the customer to do this correctly in whatever DSP they may have. Additionally, not all customers will have an external DSP in their system at all.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I assume this thread would not be the right/proper place for two "Audio Companies" discuss/argue their stances and policies; maybe derailing from the scope of OP...

Agreed, I will not continue, beyond saying that there's a difference between truth and opinion.

 

[Bjorn]

Boys!! Stop fighting!! Geez, I thought Norwegians were chill!

Anyway @Bjorn I am curious why you think that an external amp is superior to a built-in one. Surely the only thing that matters is whether the amp is adequate to power the subwoofer or not?

I understand and agree that subwoofers should not have built-in DSP. DSP is better if it is implemented upstream, and having DSP built-in to the subwoofer is redundant - I don't want to pay for a feature that I am going to bypass.

I'm talking about plate amplifiers with built in DSP. So we agree it seems. Also keep in mind that plate amps are limited in power. Even the biggest one from Hypex isn't that powerful and will for certain subwoofers be a limitation.

I'm not fighting, just sharing facts and what I believe in.

 

[Snickers-is]

High-end means the highest quality. Which is what I described because it gives the lowest delay, lowest distortion, and often the highest SPL (though the latter depends).
Didn't say built amp can't work well but there are some drawbacks.

Why does a DSP and amp in the subwoofer sound different from having the same components outside the subwoofer?

Are you up for a blind test on this?

 

[Keith_W]

Why does a DSP and amp in the subwoofer sound different from having the same components outside the subwoofer?

Are you up for a blind test on this?

Nah, the point is that DSP is better if it implemented upstream of subwoofer and speaker. Ideally before DA conversion. If you put DSP between source and DA conversion, you can control the whole audio chain.

If the DSP is on the subwoofer only, it means that your main speakers won't have DSP, so you can't time align your main speakers to your subs (it is usually the main speakers that need to be delayed, not the sub). This is probably what @Bjorn has in mind. OTOH I can also see where @sigbergaudio is coming from, if you sell a "dumb" subwoofer with no DSP to a customer, there is no guarantee the purchaser is planning to implement DSP. In the meantime, you still have to provide basic subwoofer functionality which you can obtain with more cost and complexity with traditional electronic components, but is a cinch with a DSP enabled plate amp. IMO they are both correct, just targeting different customers.

 

[dualazmak]

Nah, the point is that DSP is better if it implemented upstream of subwoofer and speaker. Ideally before DA conversion. If you put DSP between source and DA conversion, you can control the whole audio chain.

If the DSP is on the subwoofer only, it means that your main speakers won't have DSP, so you can't time align your main speakers to your subs (it is usually the main speakers that need to be delayed, not the sub).
...

Yes, fully agree with you; I would like to say the same!!
(Bold face and underline were given by me.)

DSP should be better placed within upstream digital domain just after (or within) digital software music player, ideally both within single Windows PC (or Apple Mac); then the DSP will feed the DSP-ed multichannel outputs into outer multichannel DAC unit, usually via ASIO routing through USB 2.0 or higher.

Spoiler: for example, signal path like in this diagram....

Ref. #931 on my project thread;
Please note that the signals into main SP (i.e. into woofer WO, midrange MD, tweeter TW, super-tweeter ST) are intentionally delayed 16.0 msec to time-align with subwoofer SW.
Furthermore, in this example case, the signals into MD TW ST are intentionally delayed additional 0.3 msec (total 16.3 msec) to time-align with WO.
In total, all of SW WO MD TW ST are fully time-aligned.

 

[OCA]

McLaren F1 is still the best driving experience 30 years after its launch and it doesn't have ABS.