Your results are very strange. Difficult to discuss over the internet without knowing exactly what's happening, how you're measuring, etc. But something seems off.
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Does dual sub matter if both subs have equal dips/peaks in REW room sim?
- Thread starter Geertidow
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #62
I at least got it working properly by doing the following:
1. I outputted L to the left main and the rear subwoofer (rear sub is closest to left main) and I outputted R to right main and the front subwoofer.
2. Setting crossover at 80 Hz with 24db/oct crossover (LR4)
3. Levelmatching of both subs individually (sub cal pink noise) and main speakers individually (speaker cal pink noise). I muted either mains or subs respectively. So each speaker was leven matched.
4. I followed the miniDSP instructions for time allignment (link) outputing the left main as a reference and then outputting it to right main, front sub and rear sub. Resulting in 3 ms delay on the mains and 5 ms delay on the rear subwoofer.
5. I ran DIRAC (so left output went to left main and rear sub and right output went to right main and front sub).
Correcting somewhere between 300 and 1000 Hz seems to give the best results.
By ear it's quite impressive, but when I measure I'm not so sure (see post before).
If I output both L and R to both subwoofers something goes amiss in DIRAC. Without DIRAC it sounds wonderful but when you measure and implement DIRAC it goes haywire.
1. I outputted L to the left main and the rear subwoofer (rear sub is closest to left main) and I outputted R to right main and the front subwoofer.
2. Setting crossover at 80 Hz with 24db/oct crossover (LR4)
3. Levelmatching of both subs individually (sub cal pink noise) and main speakers individually (speaker cal pink noise). I muted either mains or subs respectively. So each speaker was leven matched.
4. I followed the miniDSP instructions for time allignment (link) outputing the left main as a reference and then outputting it to right main, front sub and rear sub. Resulting in 3 ms delay on the mains and 5 ms delay on the rear subwoofer.
5. I ran DIRAC (so left output went to left main and rear sub and right output went to right main and front sub).
Correcting somewhere between 300 and 1000 Hz seems to give the best results.
By ear it's quite impressive, but when I measure I'm not so sure (see post before).
If I output both L and R to both subwoofers something goes amiss in DIRAC. Without DIRAC it sounds wonderful but when you measure and implement DIRAC it goes haywire.
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If your setup is 2.2 and gonna stay that way, move the subs near each speaker and use directional bass, Flex should be able to do this. You can apply slightly different crossovers to left and right speakers and when properly aligned that will sound better than any other option.
- Thread Starter
- #64
Yes, it will never go above 2.2, it's only for music.
However 1 of the subs does not fit in the future cabinet, so then I'd have to buy a second subwoofer (SVS 2000 pro).
And shouldn't diagonal dual subwoofer (front and back) placement outperform placement of subwoofers near the speakers?
Identical subs are important. Dual subs will not do much for room modes in your room no matter how you place them, you will only get higher SPL but asymmetric placement will defo negatively effect the phantom stage even with crossovers as low as 60Hz. For music dual subs should go next to the speakers (and a bit in front of them).
Dual subs work best if driving different sets of modes, so not both at front (assuming symmetrical room). Three is good
Five is what I am doing...- Thread Starter
- #67
Yeah I was kind of hoping to pull it off using only two subwoofers.Dual subs work best if driving different sets of modes, so not both at front (assuming symmetrical room). Three is good
But outputting left and right to the subs (which includes first level matching them of course) definitely screws up DIRAC with the front and back dual sub.
But, when just using left for 1 sub and right for the other it works!
When you finalize your placement, send me 0-24000Hz (not any other) REW measurements taken with the same acoustic timing reference (i.e. left speaker) of each speaker and sub. Turnoff ANY and ALL processing in miniDSP and the subs. Do not level or crossover anything, either. I can send you optimized settings in minutes and Dirac DLBC can not beat that calibration like ever
- Thread Starter
- #69
Well that would be this file (Wetransfer link)When you finalize your placement, send me 0-24000Hz (not any other) REW measurements taken with the same acoustic timing reference (i.e. left speaker) of each speaker and sub. Turnoff ANY and ALL processing in miniDSP and the subs. Do not level or crossover anything, either. I can send you optimized settings in minutes and Dirac DLBC can not beat that calibration like ever
Currently I have 3 ms delay on the mains and 5 ms delay on the rear subwoofer.
And if you can help me out with this, that would really, really make my day.
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I can but that BNB sub response goes flat to 4kHz???
Also left speaker measurement info shows L+R although it looks like it was a single speaker measured.
- Thread Starter
- #71
That is correct. The subwoofer is custom build and driven by 2 10" woofers. Normally I program a crossover but you told me not to ;-).
The SVS2000 has a build in DSP I think, I cannot turn that off. But there are no settings in it and the LFE entry is used.
So without DSP the custom sub just goes on to 4 KHz. Maybe an upgrade in the future, but for now this is what it is.
Edit: but so far I've really really liked the sound of the subwoofer.
Output was indeed L+R for the first measurement but the right (and subs) were muted. Then I changed output to Right and measured Left with right main, then sub, then other sub. Is that sufficient?
Edit: photo attached of custom sub
Attachments
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Ok, can you then measure this sub with 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley @120Hz lowpass filter? I need to see the delay it adds. Make sure you use the same speaker as acoustic reference with all measurements. You might wanna swap +/- cables of one of the speakers btw. They are out of phase with each other.
- Thread Starter
- #73
Of course: We transfer link
I swapped the cables, but this means in the amp itself is a wrong connection. I'll fix that shortly.
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Unfortunately your second sub is completely useless where it's placed. Even with better placement, it has very different internal roll off slopes compared to the first sub and is unlikely to ever be a good match. It would hardly be of some use with 23+ ms of additional delay only which is not something you want. That much delayed bass will rain into all your mids and highs muffling the sound. So, I ditched it!
I attached the miniDSP .xml file with all settings embedded (.zip). I assumed left speaker at output 1, right speaker at output 2 and you inverted it already (if not invert output 2 in the settings below) and subwoofer 1 (the proper sub) at output 3 (sub 2 at output 4 is muted!)
I expect you to be hearing that you don't really need the second sub
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- Thread Starter
- #75
I will take my time implementing this.Unfortunately your second sub is completely useless where it's placed. Even with better placement, it has very different internal roll off slopes compared to the first sub and is unlikely to ever be a good match. It would hardly be of some use with 23+ ms of additional delay only which is not something you want. That much delayed bass will rain into all your mids and highs muffling the sound. So, I ditched it!
I attached the miniDSP .xml file with all settings embedded (.zip). I assumed left speaker at output 1, right speaker at output 2 and you inverted it already (if not invert output 2 in the settings below) and subwoofer 1 (the proper sub) at output 3 (sub 2 at output 4 is muted!)
I expect you to be hearing that you don't really need the second sub
View attachment 456227
Would you advice the same sub (SVS 2000 pro) underneath the left main (the current SVS is underneath the right) or on the current location of u unused custom sub or is that useless?
I'll let you know soon how it sounds and thanks so much for taking time for this.
O and final question, should I use DIRAC with this/or can I implement a HK + 6dB target curve in some way?
Thanks!
Edit: couldn't wait and uploaded it. Sounds very impressive!
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Your speakers have textbook midrange and HF response. What are they?
Maybe not "modern" but it's what is a truly high-end subwoofer. "Modern" speakere isn't high-end either.
So I guess it comes down what you want. "Modern" or the highest quality.
Hello OP @Geertidow,
In addition to many suggestions already given by several ASR friends, I assume my post here #3 on the thread entitled "Seeking advice on integrating two subwoofers with full-range stereo speakers with passive radiators" (OP @Smoey22) would be of your reference and interest.
Even though various simulations by advanced software are really worthwhile for your planning, at least I myself do believe actual room sound "measurements", at your listening position, using rectangular tone burst signals (in subwoofer SW Fq, woofer WO Fq, and more importantly SW+WO overlapped Fq) would be critical for tuning in SWs integration with WOs.
In case if you would be seriously interested in using the 8-wave, 3-wave, 1-wave tone burst signals of various frequencies which I prepared and applied in my measurements and tuning, please contact me through PM communication; I will be more than happy sharing them with you.
And, in your final stage of tuning, of course your "subjective assessments and preferences" in your own acoustic environments should have "priorities" over objective measurements/results. In this perspective, you need to establish and utilize your own consistent "reference/sampler music playlist" consists of tracks of various genres hopefully fitting well for your music preferences (in my case, please refer here).
In addition to many suggestions already given by several ASR friends, I assume my post here #3 on the thread entitled "Seeking advice on integrating two subwoofers with full-range stereo speakers with passive radiators" (OP @Smoey22) would be of your reference and interest.
Even though various simulations by advanced software are really worthwhile for your planning, at least I myself do believe actual room sound "measurements", at your listening position, using rectangular tone burst signals (in subwoofer SW Fq, woofer WO Fq, and more importantly SW+WO overlapped Fq) would be critical for tuning in SWs integration with WOs.
In case if you would be seriously interested in using the 8-wave, 3-wave, 1-wave tone burst signals of various frequencies which I prepared and applied in my measurements and tuning, please contact me through PM communication; I will be more than happy sharing them with you.
And, in your final stage of tuning, of course your "subjective assessments and preferences" in your own acoustic environments should have "priorities" over objective measurements/results. In this perspective, you need to establish and utilize your own consistent "reference/sampler music playlist" consists of tracks of various genres hopefully fitting well for your music preferences (in my case, please refer here).
An identical sub symmetrically placed on the left and right side of the room will not only increase possible distortion-free loudness levels but also stereo bass and envelopment is a thing for music. Since your speakers roll at 80Hz, I would consider it. Until then try to place the single sub as central as possible.KEF R3 meta
Just for my understandind and peace of mind: do you think I don't need a 2nd subwoofer?
You need to work on your speakers placement a bit. They are not symmetrical and have a couple of inches differences to walls. I don't know your room dimensions but the graph looks like the distance to ceiling are different? Are you not using identical stands?
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