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Does DAC performance = great sound?

Doodski

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I always buy Acer monitors man i would switch to a GT1030 before i give up my monitor lol i got the first IPS 1440P 144hz Gsync monitor not switching to it breaks.
I hear and read from lotsa American and Euro peeps that Acer suxxors and in reality I'm on my 3rd Acer notebook and I beat every one of them into typing submission because I hammer the keys and all of them have been great and the Acer monitor does really good too and the price was right. I think Acer gets a bad rap from people that are Acer snobs :p
 

PolkFan

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Same i mean when it comes to monitors they all use either Samsung or LG panels anyways its just the build+Finish+QC that you pay for oh and brand names
 

Doodski

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Same i mean when it comes to monitors they all use either Samsung or LG panels anyways its just the build+Finish+QC that you pay for oh and brand names
Well considering while I am playing FPS games that I barely have time to enjoy the scenery unless I intentionally am able to peek about I can't see spending double or triple the bucks for a snazzy monitor with insane 200+ frame rates and slightly better black levels and then needing a hardcore video card to support all that. I don't notice any screen tearing and I can't say I have seen any since I used to play Unreal Tournament GOTY, 2003 and 2004 many moons ago. Screen tearing used to be a serious issue but the games and hardware have improved big time. Have you played Hunt:Showdown yet? I'm curious what the opinion is.
 

PolkFan

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Well considering while I am playing FPS games that I barely have time to enjoy the scenery unless I intentionally am able to peek about I can't see spending double or triple the bucks for a snazzy monitor with insane 200+ frame rates and slightly better black levels and then needing a hardcore video card to support all that. I don't notice any screen tearing and I can't say I have seen any since I used to play Unreal Tournament GOTY, 2003 and 2004 many moons ago. Screen tearing used to be a serious issue but the games and hardware have improved big time. Have you played Hunt:Showdown yet? I'm curious what the opinion is.

Oh man do i agree for games but i use my PC for everything if anything gaming is probably the least thing my PC does at least until the 3rd when my favorite game series comes out with RE3 remake!!!
 

PolkFan

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Hunt:Showdown no but man it looks pretty cool i have to say!
 

Doodski

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Oh man do i agree for games but i use my PC for everything if anything gaming is probably the least thing my PC does at least until the 3rd when my favorite game series comes out with RE3 remake!!!
I watched the Resident Evil 3 trailers and videos at Steam and the game looks pretty good with amazing graphics. I added it to my Steam wishlist. I was thinking of going completely out of character and getting The Witcher but after watching previews of it I just can't get into the sword fights and constant cut scenes.
 

PolkFan

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I watched the Resident Evil 3 trailers and videos at Steam and the game looks pretty good with amazing graphics. I added it to my Steam wishlist. I was thinking of going completely out of character and getting The Witcher but after watching previews of it I just can't get into the sword fights and constant cut scenes.

I ended up buying it day one over all the hype and quickly found myself playing fallout 4 for 450 hours instead lol

Never played witcher 3 sense doesn't seem to be my type of game. Funny enough i love games like Anno+Age+City Skylines stuff like that a LOT more not sure why even as a kid i had simcity 2000 on the PS1 and remember playing it for ever..................Probably played at like 8FPS thinking back at it HAHA
 

ZolaIII

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"Great" DAC performance = sound as it is.
DAC IC alone or AMP tied to it make only part of equation & when it's referred to quality of implementation it's primarily meant of how good the grounding of noise from various sources whose attended. Unfortunately some materials cost a lot (silver plating for instance) and while they don't help a lot they still do help. Some materials almost don't cost (you) anything while effect is same or even better but it will need a little of your time in applying them on (for instance OP amp with by hand applied layer of graphite coating versus one with manufacturer applied aluminium cage).
Also different IC's also have a different sensitivity to what & how easy they can pick up additional unwanted harmonics (ESS vs AKM DAC's) and some even become quite notorious because being prone of picking it up easily (like LME49720 & related to it series). The most important SINAD area improvements are those in low to mid frequencies (how pure signal is in that area) as you hear that the most. What's wort paying (a little bit) extra is warenty, support and proper drivers support all ensuring usability & longevity of the product (but very hard to be certain you will be getting those in this world).
My 5¢ on the topic.
 

PETERPAN

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It's about build quality after a certain point. How long is a Topping, Soncuz, SMSL, etc going to stay in spec? How long are the Capacitors going to stay in spec? etc... etc...
Spot on, I have an o;d roksan M1 power Amp and an old Audiolab 8000 Pre amp. they have been going for ages without a glitch. it's me who sometimes feel I need to send them for a service. So yes quality components matter most for longevit.
 

Budgeter

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TLDR: Better measurement = Better DAC performance, but Performance != your "great sound" definition.

My opinion on this is pretty simple. It is all due to how you define what "great sound" is, basically up to your taste. In my case, if something sounds good to me, then I will go with it even if it's placebo, or has bad measurement. The fact that a product is created to satisfy the need of a user, so why bother if the devices meet your need.
I think most people misunderstand one thing. In term of engineering, measurement is used to defined how good the product is engineered/perform. And as everything progresses, we should have even better-measured devices. That's how technology should be, specs must improve even a human can never perceive it. However, measurement doesn't define your sound perception, or your own definition of "great sound".

As in case of $500 vs $2000 or even $200000 device, if they are measured similarly, then they will behave the same. What you pay more for is specific functions (I/O, format supported, etc), brand name, build quality, etc and these may or may not affect your experience with the product. If $2000 DAC have better specs than $500 one, then surely it will "sound cleaner", but the question is whether you can perceive it.
 

Eminar

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Hello,

I been using this form as a buying guide since I got into audio. I am very very grateful to everyone on here that takes the time to review products.

I am wondering this one thing, maybe it has been asked before so I apologizes in advanced. Perhaps you can point to me the thread, if so?

So here is my question...

I see all the reviews for great performing dacs on here and I cant help but wonder, does the 500 dollar (SMLS M500 example) dac actually sound cleaner then the 2000 dac (Benchmark DAC3 example) because it has has better numbers? At the end of the day does price really not matter?

Or does more go into the build process in more expensive dacs? I mean clearly we can tell that some expensive dac's are not worth the money due to its performance.

Here is my honest to god question, if you have two Dac's with similar performance in numbers, ones 500 ones 2000. Is it really all about features and warranty at that point when taking into consideration which to buy?

Thank you so much for you time.

-John
Hello,

I been using this form as a buying guide since I got into audio. I am very very grateful to everyone on here that takes the time to review products.

I am wondering this one thing, maybe it has been asked before so I apologizes in advanced. Perhaps you can point to me the thread, if so?

So here is my question...

I see all the reviews for great performing dacs on here and I cant help but wonder, does the 500 dollar (SMLS M500 example) dac actually sound cleaner then the 2000 dac (Benchmark DAC3 example) because it has has better numbers? At the end of the day does price really not matter?

Or does more go into the build process in more expensive dacs? I mean clearly we can tell that some expensive dac's are not worth the money due to its performance.

Here is my honest to god question, if you have two Dac's with similar performance in numbers, ones 500 ones 2000. Is it really all about features and warranty at that point when taking into consideration which to buy?

Thank you so much for you time.

-John


Spend on Speakers. If you wanna spend $2000 instead of $200 on a dac you'll need $10000 speakers and a nice room to hear the difference
 

A800

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I hear and read from lotsa American and Euro peeps that Acer suxxors and in reality I'm on my 3rd Acer notebook and I beat every one of them into typing submission because I hammer the keys and all of them have been great and the Acer monitor does really good too and the price was right. I think Acer gets a bad rap from people that are Acer snobs :p
It depends on the specific product.
Acer has reliable stuff also.
Interestingly the lower end seems to be more reliable.
 

NgtFlyer

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So, allow me to fire up the time machine here at first. Mid 80s, my father went to an audio shop and spent a large sum of money on a new Carver MXR-130 receiver, a Mission CD player and other componets, and a pair of Infinity RS4b speakers.

Not long after, I bought a Pioneer VSX-3300 receiver and already had an old pair of Advent speakers and I loved it.

During the first five years of ownership, the expensive Carver broke down and had to go in for service. I offered up my Pioneer, which cost less than half of what the Carver cost, for Dad to borrow while his unit was out being repaired. I remember him mentioning how the Pioneer sounded surprisingly good and seemed to be a bit "meatier" sounding, if I remember right. Years later, I inherited the Carver and those wonderful Infinity speakers. That Carver unit is broken down yet again. When it does work, it always seems to run out of power on strong peaks.
This is a perfect example of a "high end" audio product being outperformed by a much less expensive one.

Now, let's take any of the inexpensive DACs that perform well from the likes of Topping or Schiit. If you look at the reviews as compared to much more expensive models from, say, PS Audio, the inexpensive units run rings around some of these expensive ones.

I myself have been using an old 1793 mini-dac I got many years ago for... maybe $60? It still works fine and sounds very good, but it does have an audible noise floor if you turn the volume up a bit. In normal listening situations, it's fine. Just this week, I have sprung for a new Schiit Modi 3 to use with my Magni 3 headphone amplifier. It's a $99 product that, according to many reviews, performs very well. In fact, the ASR review was part of my decision process.

In my humble opinion, all a DAC needs to do is take digital audio (be it SPDIF or via USB) and convert it to a good clean accurate analog signal for the rest of the gear down the chain to do their jobs at reproducing the sound. I am perfectly happy with a unit that simply has a power on indicator.

My new Modi is supposed to arrive tomorrow and I am eager to hook it up and spend some quality listening time with it. My source is my PC, I have plenty of lossless music files (kthx my CD collection as well as online purchases). I am using coax SPDIF to the DAC, and I also have TOSlink going over to my NAD C368 (which I am very happy with). Why TOSlink? There is a benefit to having the PC and the audio gear electrically isolated.

Apologies for the long-winded reply, but I hope this is helpful.
 

PETERPAN

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So, allow me to fire up the time machine here at first. Mid 80s, my father went to an audio shop and spent a large sum of money on a new Carver MXR-130 receiver, a Mission CD player and other componets, and a pair of Infinity RS4b speakers.

Not long after, I bought a Pioneer VSX-3300 receiver and already had an old pair of Advent speakers and I loved it.

During the first five years of ownership, the expensive Carver broke down and had to go in for service. I offered up my Pioneer, which cost less than half of what the Carver cost, for Dad to borrow while his unit was out being repaired. I remember him mentioning how the Pioneer sounded surprisingly good and seemed to be a bit "meatier" sounding, if I remember right. Years later, I inherited the Carver and those wonderful Infinity speakers. That Carver unit is broken down yet again. When it does work, it always seems to run out of power on strong peaks.
This is a perfect example of a "high end" audio product being outperformed by a much less expensive one.

Now, let's take any of the inexpensive DACs that perform well from the likes of Topping or Schiit. If you look at the reviews as compared to much more expensive models from, say, PS Audio, the inexpensive units run rings around some of these expensive ones.

I myself have been using an old 1793 mini-dac I got many years ago for... maybe $60? It still works fine and sounds very good, but it does have an audible noise floor if you turn the volume up a bit. In normal listening situations, it's fine. Just this week, I have sprung for a new Schiit Modi 3 to use with my Magni 3 headphone amplifier. It's a $99 product that, according to many reviews, performs very well. In fact, the ASR review was part of my decision process.

In my humble opinion, all a DAC needs to do is take digital audio (be it SPDIF or via USB) and convert it to a good clean accurate analog signal for the rest of the gear down the chain to do their jobs at reproducing the sound. I am perfectly happy with a unit that simply has a power on indicator.

My new Modi is supposed to arrive tomorrow and I am eager to hook it up and spend some quality listening time with it. My source is my PC, I have plenty of lossless music files (kthx my CD collection as well as online purchases). I am using coax SPDIF to the DAC, and I also have TOSlink going over to my NAD C368 (which I am very happy with). Why TOSlink? There is a benefit to having the PC and the audio gear electrically isolated.

Apologies for the long-winded reply, but I hope this is helpful.
Hahaha. am very happy with my mobile phone and a 1More earphone, have not been able to replicate it with expensive units.
 

Fotophred

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DACs often sound different and those that measure well often/usually sound better than those DACs that dont measure well.

Everyone will value the audio qualities that suits them.
Some I know are "brand sluts" - they buy on name plate.
Many others buy on how the gear looks.
Others are sheeple (Sheep people) - they follow the latest online audio sensation.
Not that many are open minded enough to try new uncharted equipment - Soncoz DACs for example are great sound for the investment (No doubt there is a plethora of other new/previously unknown brands that perform well)

-
 

ReaderZ

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DAC makes a big difference to me, but only when you compare a really good one to a really bad one. My Dx7 Pro is big improvement over my onboard sound which is a ALC 889 or maybe ALC 1150.

Speakers and headphones will be the biggest factor though.
 

NgtFlyer

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So, since my earlier reply, my Schiit Modi 3 has arrived and I have had a chance to do some quality listening using the matching Magni 3 headphone amp. My source is my PC's coax SPDIF output, running at 24/92 (because the TOSlink goes to another device). Most files played are in FLAC format.
My impressions? Very, VERY good.
My headphones are a pair of ATH-M50x with upgraded earpads from Brainwavs. I also tested using my old Grado SR-80 cans. I prefer the AT headphones for their sound, privacy and comfort.
The sound. Very clean. Neutral with just a tad of "midrange forward" without being over-emphasized. This really helps bring out vocals and solo instruments. No audible noise even with volume turned all the way up and nothing playing. I purchased these after research which included reviews here on ASR. The combo set me back about $225 after shipping. For what I have in sound quality, that's a downright bargain especially considering many devices costing thousands more don't measure nearly as well.
I've done some A/B listening between my new Modi and my old 1793 DAC using the same headphone amp. With music playing, the differences are pretty slight but I feel that the Modi sounds cleaner and handles strong passages better. The older 1793 has an audible noise floor with the volume up.

Was it a fanboy purchase? No. Was it a trendy purchase? Nope. I am very much a function first, form second person, but I will happily admit that the two devices look great stacked, What impresses me most is the sound. I've very much enjoyed revisiting some of my music collection that hasn't been touched for quite some time simply because it just didn't sound as good on my old (27 year old) integrated amp. I only wish the Modi had a second line-level out as I'd like to feed another device. Time for a D/A I suppose..

So in summary, if you take my experience with the Modi 3, which measured quite well in testing, as an example, yes. A well performing DAC equals great sound when paired with good equipment down the chain.
 

ZolaIII

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@NgtFlyer off topic but today I run on to ATH-MSR7 under the price locally, for little less than 200$ & the fun part is that they don't need additional amplifier at all. :)
 
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