Does DAC performance = great sound?

[maverickronin]

So, basically people selling DAC's at 2k are more or less ripping you off? Especially when you have a Topping or SMLS dac that has the same numbers at a quarter of the cost?

That would depend how they're selling it. If they're telling you it sounds better then yes, they're probably ripping you off. If they'll selling it on features, bragging rights for great specs, build quality/warranty, or just general coolness factor then no.

People say the multibyte dacs that run 2K and higher are great sounding pieces of equipment, its all mental?

Yes.

This dac https://www.moon-audio.com/matrix-audio-x-sabre-pro.html , the Matrix X has no audible better difference then something like the D90 or M500? Honest question.

Nope, won't sound any different to humans under controlled conditions. It does have more features and gives you bragging rights for being tied for first in the ASR SINAD ranking though.

There is lots and lots of BS in audio but that doesn't make everything that's expensive a rip off. (Even if a lot of it it...)

Something I personally find odd about audio is that almost no one will admit to spending more money based on something being cooler that a cheaper option. In comparison to another hobby, no one has this problem with cars. People will spend thousands upon thousands on purely cosmetic upgrades. People will "stance"their cars to make them look cooler at the expense of performance. People will buy brand new sports cars based on styling and brand exclusivity instead of raw performance numbers.

And no one ever questions this. No one tries to invent new laws of physics in order to claim their Ferrari really is faster than a less expensive Corvette despite the Ferrari's slower 0-60 times. Most people accept that someone will spend a lot more money on something they think is cooler and don't care as much about the absolute limits of performance because both are already way too damn fast.

Very few people in audio can admit this though. For sellers it's almost always "this special way of doing things sounds better" rather than "check out our cool and special way of doing things". Buyers can't admit they made a decision on something other than pure sound quality so they use any argument available to justify the higher sound quality whatever they purchased must have. This seems to to create a feedback loop with marketers catering to delusions invented to reduce cognitive dissonance via buyer's remorse which just creates more cognitive dissonance and more delusions.

At least for the electronics. There's more leeway in transducers.

Anyway, there's my rant for the evening...

 

[frogmeat69]

I was interested in the RME ADI-2 DAC because of Amir's review, the excellent measurements, features, and a quality amp built in. But then I watched a video about it and saw the beautiful screen dancing away, and it sealed the deal, lol. So kinda bought an expensive DAC partially on looks.

 

[Spocko]

Something I personally find odd about audio is that almost no one will admit to spending more money based on something being cooler that a cheaper option. In comparison to another hobby, no one has this problem with cars. People will spend thousands upon thousands on purely cosmetic upgrades. People will "stance"their cars to make them look cooler at the expense of performance. People will buy brand new sports cars based on styling and brand exclusivity instead of raw performance numbers.

And no one ever questions this. No one tries to invent new laws of physics in order to claim their Ferrari really is faster than a less expensive Corvette despite the Ferrari's slower 0-60 times. Most people accept that someone will spend a lot more money on something they think is cooler and don't care as much about the absolute limits of performance because both are already way too damn fast.

Very few people in audio can admit this though. For sellers it's almost always "this special way of doing things sounds better" rather than "check out our cool and special way of doing things". Buyers can't admit they made a decision on something other than pure sound quality so they use any argument available to justify the higher sound quality whatever they purchased must have. This seems to to create a feedback loop with marketers catering to delusions invented to reduce cognitive dissonance via buyer's remorse which just creates more cognitive dissonance and more delusions.

At least for the electronics. There's more leeway in transducers.

Anyway, there's my rant for the evening...

JDSLabs Element II looks cool with that usable giant volume dial - not ashamed to admit that I’m willing to go “down” in specs just for the look and feel of it.

 

[Spocko]

I was interested in the RME ADI-2 DAC because of Amir's review, the excellent measurements, features, and a quality amp built in. But then I watched a video about it and saw the beautiful screen dancing away, and it sealed the deal, lol. So kinda bought an expensive DAC partially on looks.

Another pretty DAC that appears to be engineered to perfection is the new Holo Audio May!

 

[Incursio]

So, basically people selling DAC's at 2k are more or less ripping you off? Especially when you have a Topping or SMLS dac that has the same numbers at a quarter of the cost?

This dac https://www.moon-audio.com/matrix-audio-x-sabre-pro.html , the Matrix X has no better audible difference then something like the D90 or M500? Honest question.

I find that insane, its probably so much cheaper to pump out DACs in China or Jap. These companies are probably eastern EU or American and that the cost is higher? Or do you think they use better parts?

It depends.

Do you want to take the red pill or the blue pill?

It's surprising how much of how one approaches high-end audio depends on that question.

 

[PolkFan]

That would depend how they're selling it. If they're telling you it sounds better then yes, they're probably ripping you off. If they'll selling it on features, bragging rights for great specs, build quality/warranty, or just general coolness factor then no.



Yes.



Nope, won't sound any different to humans under controlled conditions. It does have more features and gives you bragging rights for being tied for first in the ASR SINAD ranking though.

There is lots and lots of BS in audio but that doesn't make everything that's expensive a rip off. (Even if a lot of it it...)

Something I personally find odd about audio is that almost no one will admit to spending more money based on something being cooler that a cheaper option. In comparison to another hobby, no one has this problem with cars. People will spend thousands upon thousands on purely cosmetic upgrades. People will "stance"their cars to make them look cooler at the expense of performance. People will buy brand new sports cars based on styling and brand exclusivity instead of raw performance numbers.

And no one ever questions this. No one tries to invent new laws of physics in order to claim their Ferrari really is faster than a less expensive Corvette despite the Ferrari's slower 0-60 times. Most people accept that someone will spend a lot more money on something they think is cooler and don't care as much about the absolute limits of performance because both are already way too damn fast.

Very few people in audio can admit this though. For sellers it's almost always "this special way of doing things sounds better" rather than "check out our cool and special way of doing things". Buyers can't admit they made a decision on something other than pure sound quality so they use any argument available to justify the higher sound quality whatever they purchased must have. This seems to to create a feedback loop with marketers catering to delusions invented to reduce cognitive dissonance via buyer's remorse which just creates more cognitive dissonance and more delusions.

At least for the electronics. There's more leeway in transducers.

Anyway, there's my rant for the evening...

HAHA i loved reading this i'm new here and i love this place to death way better then some other places that i have been too. I love that this site seems to focus on objective material vs subjective. Quite welcoming and i hope it continues!

Anyways i wanted to say that being a PC guy myself i always look at performance over function first and then looks only if i can get max performance first. Meaning sure i love my RGB and my glass side panel but i'd easily take it away if i had to lose 0.5% of measurable performance . In fact in the PC community we have something called sleeper builds! Crappy looking cases or old cases with high-end components in them i love that.

To me as long as its not a circuit board that is exposed due to the safety of the component i don't care at all what it looks like well i guess i want it to fit on my desk.


I'm actually making my research paper on "Correlation of sound quality in head-fi"

So far i have 5 most important aspects in this order
Source file
Headphones
Amp
Dac
Wires,snakeoil,annoying dog barking outside, break-in time

Last part will be fun to do and will include several studies and research behind them.


So far i gather you can get 90% of the high-fi quality under a $1000 budget before diminishing returns hit extremely quick.

Funny how many people don't consider the source as the most important. If anything a HD800 will sound worse on a poorly made source then even a cheap pair of phones.

 

[BDWoody]

Funny how many people don't consider the source as the most important

Indeed!

Welcome to the site...sounds like you are about to do a lot of reading, like a lot of us who stumbled across this place and found ourselves being relieved of the weight of all that bullshit that passes as truth.

For me, if it doesn't have moving parts, it's should be a solved problem, with simple tests of competence being all that is needed to determine whether it will work for my requirements.

Once you get into the speakers and the room, that's where moving a speaker a foot, or closing heavy curtains will make more difference than what you will hear between two DAC's...assuming you use proper listening controls.
I agree on the stealth computer box...I don't need a light show...

Cheers, and again welcome.

 

[maverickronin]

I was interested in the RME ADI-2 DAC because of Amir's review, the excellent measurements, features, and a quality amp built in. But then I watched a video about it and saw the beautiful screen dancing away, and it sealed the deal, lol. So kinda bought an expensive DAC partially on looks.

JDSLabs Element II looks cool with that usable giant volume dial - not ashamed to admit that I’m willing to go “down” in specs just for the look and feel of it.

Yep. People here are more likely to be honest.

Even the designers of the Yggdrasil can't admit that they made it because the idea of repurposing an industrial automation DAC chip was cool.

I also forgot to mention ergonomics. Do 99% of headphones need something with better specs than an O2? Nope. They why buy something more expensive? Because the ergonomics are crap. They were specifically designed that way to be cheaper. All the connectors are bunched up on the font so that DIYers would only have to order one precut panel from Front Panel Express.

 

[nugget]

So far i have 5 most important aspects in this order
Source file
Headphones
Amp
Dac
Wires,snakeoil,annoying dog barking outside, break-in time

I think you missed an important one: Price of Gear

It cost $20,000 so it must sound amazing.

 

[Inkey31]

I think you missed an important one: Price of Gear

It cost $20,000 so it must sound amazing.

Can you believe this dude?

You rub the snack oil on the XLR cables that were 2K each, then the 20K dac, plus do not forget to add it on your 1/4 connector at every plugin to your amp, at least til your solid state burns in.

Then once your cables, dac, and amp have burned in, you get some 1932 NOS tubes for true pure sound at 350 bucks a pop.

Good to go bro!

 

[beefkabob]

You rub the snack oil on the XLR cables that were 2K each, then the 20K dac,

LOL! You cables cost 2k? CHEAPSKATE! Get a real man's cables. Budget at least $5000 per foot. And that's just for interconnects.

 

[PolkFan]

LOL! You cables cost 2k? CHEAPSKATE! Get a real man's cables. Budget at least $5000 per foot. And that's just for interconnects.

I just use a bunch of power line cables hopefully my electric company doesn't find out who took it all

 

[nugget]

I just use a bunch of power line cables hopefully my electric company doesn't find out who took it all

Just be careful to always mark the direction before you take the power line cables down. You'd hate to ruin your audio by installing them backwards in your system.

 

[PolkFan]

OMG HAHA

I swear you can't even make this stuff up

 

[Bear123]

OMG HAHA

I swear you can't even make this stuff up

Oddly, I don't have the slightest idea what a single item in your signature is. Most times I'm like, hmm, ok, not familiar with them, but those are speakers, or, hmm, nice amp, but your equipment list...not the foggiest.....I think AKG is a spark plug brand? That's all I got

 

[majingotan]

LOL! You cables cost 2k? CHEAPSKATE! Get a real man's cables. Budget at least $5000 per foot. And that's just for interconnects.

I’m cheapskate, I can only afford $1500 per meter IEM cable

 

[PolkFan]

Oddly, I don't have the slightest idea what a single item in your signature is. Most times I'm like, hmm, ok, not familiar with them, but those are speakers, or, hmm, nice amp, but your equipment list...not the foggiest.....I think AKG is a spark plug brand? That's all I got

Bunch of nonsense i put in like i do on PC forums like all us PC-Master race fools

 

[PolkFan]

I’m cheapskate, I can only afford $1500 per meter IEM cable
View attachment 56393

Yesterday on Reddit i was talking to someone who said that damping screws in a speaker system improves the sound quality of the set of speakers so this is an extremely well............ interesting group.

I don't disagree with them since well i know better.

 

[Wes]

"many people don't consider the source as the most important" because they have very limited control over it

OTOH, you can tweak your speaker positions until the heat death of the universe

 

[PolkFan]

"many people don't consider the source as the most important" because they have very limited control over it

OTOH, you can tweak your speaker positions until the heat death of the universe

Yet Terminator 1 will still sound like crap believe me