Does DAC performance = great sound?

[Inkey31]

Hello,

I been using this form as a buying guide since I got into audio. I am very very grateful to everyone on here that takes the time to review products.

I am wondering this one thing, maybe it has been asked before so I apologizes in advanced. Perhaps you can point to me the thread, if so?

So here is my question...

I see all the reviews for great performing dacs on here and I cant help but wonder, does the 500 dollar (SMLS M500 example) dac actually sound cleaner then the 2000 dac (Benchmark DAC3 example) because it has has better numbers? At the end of the day does price really not matter?

Or does more go into the build process in more expensive dacs? I mean clearly we can tell that some expensive dac's are not worth the money due to its performance.

Here is my honest to god question, if you have two Dac's with similar performance in numbers, ones 500 ones 2000. Is it really all about features and warranty at that point when taking into consideration which to buy?

Thank you so much for you time.

-John

 

[BDWoody]

Here is my honest to god question, if you have two Dac's with similar performance in numbers...

After that point, the price isn't part of the 'sounds better' question, at least in that range of audible transparency (M500 or similar).

Between broken DAC's, really hard to tell what is what, also at any price...

 

[Fluffy]

Objectively speaking, DACs don't impact the sound coming out from the speakers/headphones that much. It's just a device that makes an electrical signal. Any deviations from a perfect signal that it introduces most likely gets drowned out by what the amplifier does to it, even more what the speakers do to it, even more what the listening environment does, and all of these pales in compresence to how inaccurate our sense of hearing is to begin with.

There is no real reason for a dac to be a separate, let alone super expansive device. It's contribution to the overall sound is negligible, as long as it performs better than the lenient audibility threshold. In short, a flat frequency response, standard output voltage and SINAD of 96 or better will guarantee complete transparency. You should only spend as much as you need to achieve these targets, and the minimum spending limit to do that just keeps going down as technology improves.

 

[Count Arthur]

A lot of the variance in cost between DACs will be due to things that will not effect the sound quality of the finished product, for example:

• Where it's made. If it's manufactured in Europe or the US, the cost will be significantly higher than it will in China and some other parts of the world.
• How it's made. Is it made in small numbers, largely by hand, or in large quantities and primarily on automated production lines.
• Does it include "boutique" components. Some manufacturers opt to use some boutique components, that are more expensive, but may not have any real world effect on the sound quality.
• Does it have expensive case work. It will cost a lot more to produce a beautifully finished case, milled from a solid billet of aluminium with nice switches and knobs and maybe a fancy screen, than a plain case with maybe a few LEDs and basic plastic swithches and knobs.

 

[A800]

Implementation of the DAC > the DAC itself.

 

[Inkey31]

So SIND and Dynamic range are the two most important factors, regardless of price. Everything else is just features and warranty?

 

[Fluffy]

So SIND and Dynamic range are the two most important factors, regardless of price. Everything else is just features and warranty?

Flat frequency response is also important for a DAC, and a descent digital over sampling filter to a lesser degree. These are not expansive or difficult features to implement, but you need to make sure they are not messed up. Otherwise their effect is more noticeable than dynamic range that is 80 db instead of 100 db.

But yeah, all the important qualities of DACs are really not dependent on price and there is no reason to expect a DAC that cost X20 more to perform X20 better.

 

[Xulonn]

As others have said, any of the many good DACs that Amir has tested will sound great - if the downstream components (amp and speakers) are good - and compatible, and DSP or room treatments are used.

Search the ASR reviews for the parameters you want - including "Recommended" and all DACs listed will be excellent. Then look at the reviews for the ones that interest you based features and design. Prices in the list are retail, although Amir usually includes comments about discount prices if the unit is available on Amazon.

If you want a DAC with a volume control, I am not aware of one that does not include a headphone amp. But be careful, because for some units, the volume control does not work with the line-level out - only for the headphones. And the manufacturer or reseller description and specifications don't always mention that important detail.

If you use a preamp and don't need a volume control, there are many DACs in the $10 - $120 range with excellent specs.

=========================

All of our paths to audio nirvana are different, but I chose the Topping DX7s, even though it has a headphone amp which I do not use.

Retail is $500, but I bought it via [Mass]Drop for $360.

Features of the Topping DX7s that I like:

• A volume control.
• An optional (separate purchase) remote.
• Dual pairs of output jacks - XLR and RCA - use the XLR out to an amplifier, the RCA out can be used for a subwoofer.
• Four selectable digital inputs (USB, Toslink optical, coaxial and AES, so you can use it as a preamp for up to 4 different digital sources.

If you want a similar DAC version with even more features, check out the $1k RME-ADI-2 DAC/Headphone Amp - one of the best units out there.

 

[Celty]

Great sound, I have concluded, is the result of the following from most important to the least important.

1. The headphone or speakers you have. The pointy end of the stick is after all what actually produces the sound. It is also somewhat the opposite of buying a DAC. I.E. measurements do not capture the whole story, and your personal preference in sound is key. For instance, I can EQ my HD650 and my Auteur to "look" the same and theoretically sound the same. They don't. There is a large difference in soundstage, imaging, detail, timbre, etc. that goes far beyond a frequency curve.

2. The amplification. Power and noise floor, etc., How much power you need is determined by what you are trying to drive. Give yourself plenty of headroom.

3. Source material quality. A crummy recording is crummy no matter what you are playing it on.

4. DAC - as long as it measures well and has the features you need, it will work well. The DAC reviews on this forum will help you figure out which suits you best.

 

[Neddy]

My experience is - how much better are the numbers involved?
I went from a poor performing (by the numbers) but ok sounding pre/pro HDMI DAC to the OktoDAC Pro - and it was a world of difference, clearly audible.
However, now that I've spent months listening to it, I've become aware that one of the greatest (and not immediately 'obvious') differences is the huge improvement in dynamic range...most noticeable with classical orchestral or chamber music recordings.
All other things being more or less equal, I now look more closely at Amir's dynamic range (multi-tone) tests on DACs.
I also have Topping D50 and DX3s, but haven't yet bothered to connect them up to the big system...that would be an interesting comparison.

Here's a collage I put together of DACs with similar SINADs, and then the multitone tests for those that had them:
(Matrix vs. OktoDAC are interesting multi-tone tests to compare, vs. their SINAD/THD #s.);

 

[Tks]

Here is my honest to god question, if you have two Dac's with similar performance in numbers, ones 500 ones 2000. Is it really all about features and warranty at that point when taking into consideration which to buy?

As someone with an RME ADI 2 DAC...

For me, past $100 it's all about features/warranty/bling. At $500 you're pretty much getting end-game DAC's to begin with.

 

[tuga]

Does DAC performance = great sound?

Great sound means accurately reproduced signal; it may sound pleasing to some people and unpleasing to others.

A DAC by itself doesn't reproduce music, it merely converts the digital signal into analogue. It needs an amplifier to increase the amplitude of the analogue signal that's able to adequately drive the speakers, and loudspeakers to transduce the electrical signal into sound waves. It is part of a system.

 

[lewis]

My experience is - how much better are the numbers involved?
I went from a poor performing (by the numbers) but ok sounding pre/pro HDMI DAC to the OktoDAC Pro - and it was a world of difference, clearly audible.
However, now that I've spent months listening to it, I've become aware that one of the greatest (and not immediately 'obvious') differences is the huge improvement in dynamic range...most noticeable with classical orchestral or chamber music recordings.
All other things being more or less equal, I now look more closely at Amir's dynamic range (multi-tone) tests on DACs.
I also have Topping D50 and DX3s, but haven't yet bothered to connect them up to the big system...that would be an interesting comparison.

Here's a collage I put together of DACs with similar SINADs, and then the multitone tests for those that had them:
(Matrix vs. OktoDAC are interesting multi-tone tests to compare, vs. their SINAD/THD #s.);

would the difference between the Modi3 and the Okto be clearly audible?

 

[thefsb]

Here is my honest to god question, if you have two Dac's with similar performance in numbers, ones 500 ones 2000. Is it really all about features and warranty at that point when taking into consideration which to buy?

I don't think so. You can get practically perfect performance and all the features you need for well under USD500. So I think the expensive devices are simply for people who want them because of, idk, looks, bragging rights, pride of ownership, brand loyalty, ... all that stuff.

It's like, if you want expensive speaker cables, there are plenty to choose from. Enjoy them! I'd prefer to spend the money on something more fun (like .strandberg* Boden True Temperament in my case). I need it as much as some people need their fancy loudspeaker cables—not at all, of course—but I'll enjoy it.

 

[Fluffy]

would the difference between the Modi3 and the Okto be clearly audible?

Depends how you prime yourself psychologically before comparing them.

 

[Jinjuku]

It's about build quality after a certain point. How long is a Topping, Soncuz, SMSL, etc going to stay in spec? How long are the Capacitors going to stay in spec? etc... etc...

 

[Neddy]

So of course that is the question, and of course I cannot answer (yet).
Unfortunately, I have too much other stuff on my plate at the moment to swap out the D50 or DX3Pro and test.
(Those are both non-balanced outputs, too, which makes a valid test trickier to set up.)

But here's what I wonder about:
- There's a good 20db or so difference in dynamic range between those top tier DACs (multitone tests).
Would that be audible?
(And keep in mind that Amir has not tested the production version of the OktoDAC yet!)
I suspect not, or at least only with well trained ears on source material you are extremely familiar with.
But I do wonder, given what I've noticed with the Okto.

- Depends on what other dynamic range 'robbing' you have going on elsewhere, via crossovers and Room/EQ, etc.

- Ditto for the rest of the signal chain, I suppose.
(But I'm running 'vintage' Bryston amps, which I would have thought would eat up some of the OktoDAC's 'goodness', but still the audible differences after installing it are totally gob-smacking.)

So, until/unless someone 'we trust' can actually do qualified A/B testing, I'd say chose based on price (budget) and features.
Or, just buy the OktoDAC of your flavor and wait patiently for delivery, knowing that there isn't anything remarkably better out there for the price.

(I bought the Okto primarily for it's unique feature set; I figure I got world best of class performance for 'free'.)

 

[Fluffy]

- There's a good 20db or so difference in dynamic range between those top tier DACs (multitone tests).
Would that be audible?

How does the multitone test reflect dynamic range? Or how is it different than the measurement called "dynamic range"?

 

[NoMoFoNo]

Performance and features count. the rest of it doesn't IMO, which is the entire point of ASR as far as I can tell. Why any buyer would pay multiples for a DAC when you get an audibly transparent one for $250 or less is beyond me. I suppose more money might get prettier enclosures or better warranty. I don't really understand even the discussion about some of the DACs that run well above $1000 on this forum, unless they are poor performers. What is the point of a DAC that costs an extra $1000 and that gets one place further left on the ratings diagram?

 

[Neddy]

@Fluffy
So what I find useful about the multitone test is that it clearly shows how harmonic distortion 'adds up' over the audio range, or, put another way, 'eats up' dynamic range, esp at higher frequencies.
I happen to like instruments with complex harmonic signatures (at least to these western ears), like bagpipes, didgeridoo, etc, as well as classical orchestral and chamber music, so I tell myself it matters to me.
I do not disagree - in principal - with the other comments along the line of 'it doesn't matter' (between top tier DACs), but given my experience with the Okto, I do wonder, and so share those thoughts here.
I was not expecting or anticipating dynamics to make such a noticeable difference, but it does on my system upgrade.
And, it is truly amazing how good the $200 (and under!) DACs are today.
If it weren't for the unique feature set of the Okto, I'd probably have been fine with something like the D50 (or bal.out equivalent).