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Does buying an SACD player make sense, if yes any recommendations?

shaharidan

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It seems the more I try to educate myself the more ignorant and confused I feel.

Anyway, my thinking is there may be recordings on SACD that were very well recorded and mastered, but what is available via streaming and download services is not the same.
As an example I'll use Mobile Fidelity, I don't think their recordings are available via streaming or download.
Whether or not Mobile Fidelity recordings are good is another conversation I just wanted an example of something I don't think is available online.

If my initial thinking is incorrect or only true for a very small number of recordings then I probably don't need an SACD player.

If my thinking is correct would anyone be able to recommend a 'reasonably' priced SACD player that has been measured/tested objectively?
I imagine the internal DAC is probably the more important part.

Thanks,
Mike
 

SMc

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For me, multichannel is the reason to get SACDs. Many Blu-ray players can play them but usually the output is over HDMI and is intended for an AVR. There are stereo SACD players with DACs from Arcam, Denon, etc but they are usually relatively expensive compared to the HDMI-output universal players such as those from Sony.

I use a Sony UDP X800 with a Marantz AVR for multichannel.
 

Alexanderc

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For me, multichannel is the reason to get SACDs. Many Blu-ray players can play them but usually the output is over HDMI and is intended for an AVR. There are stereo SACD players with DACs from Arcam, Denon, etc but they are usually relatively expensive compared to the HDMI-output universal players such as those from Sony.

I use a Sony UDP X800 with a Marantz AVR for multichannel.
I second this if you're set on getting an SACD player. I don't expect one could really hear the difference, but I'll let more knowledgeable people comment on that.
 

amadeuswus

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If my thinking is correct would anyone be able to recommend a 'reasonably' priced SACD player that has been measured/tested objectively?

Sadly Oppo is now out of the picture (unless you buy used at a markup); otherwise, you can find Amir's measurements of the BDP-105 and BDP-205 on this site.

For a source of nicely discounted multichannel SACDs, see for example this thread:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tlet-for-classical-music-sacds-and-cds.19109/
(I have no financial connection to the outlet linked... just want physical media to stick around.)
 

SegaCD

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On a bit of a side-note, no player with the SACD logo, per Sony's license, can output a pure DSD stream... Only a PCM conversion of the DSD stream. So not only is the player's DAC important, but also whatever low-latency resampling algorithm it's using must also be good. I have no data on player performance that way, but it's good to note.

Some players have aftermarket mods that do allow direct DSD output. The (discontinued) Oppo blu-ray players did (via an i2s HDMI connector).

Original PS3s with SACD support can also rip SACDs with minor software mods to play back on another device (as the PS3 itself could not stream DSD directly).

Otherwise, I would just go with any multi-format Sony. They're fast, affordable, & usually well supported and if you're going to use an external DAC, who cares about anything else? (unless, once again, the PCM conversion algorithms improve with price).
 

fun

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I have 3 old players (2 DVD, 1 Blu-Ray) that play SACDs. They all sounds excellent to me. In the past, I sent the audio through multi-channel analog output to my pre-HDMI Rotel AVR, so the DAC on the players are important.

Right now, the Oppo Blu-Ray player sent DSD to Denon AVR (through HDMI) which convert it to PCM for EQ, Bass Mgmt etc. before output the analog audio. In this case, only the DAC on the AVR matters.

If I were to buy a new SACD player today (say when the Oppo died), I would buy the Sony X800M2, which also plays 4k Bluray and DVD-Audio. I have a few surround/immersive albums from 2L that include both Blu-ray audio (support Auro 3D, Dolby Atmos) and SACD discs, so being able to play both Blu-ray and SACDs (& DVD-Audio which I have a few) are important to me.

I continue to listen to SACDs because of the reasons that are mentioned earlier, which is multi-channel audio and some very nicely re-mastered discs, such as Miles Davis' recordings from MFSL. The recent Quadraphonic SACD release of Bitches Brew from Sony Japan is amazing too. A few recently released SACDs from Pentatone that I got from Berkshire Outlet (e.g. the Rossini Overture, Elgar Cello Concerto) are excellent in terms of performance and recording quality.
 

Kal Rubinson

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On a bit of a side-note, no player with the SACD logo, per Sony's license, can output a pure DSD stream...
Unless it is encoded/copy protected.
...........
Only a PCM conversion of the DSD stream. So not only is the player's DAC important, but also whatever low-latency resampling algorithm it's using must also be good. I have no data on player performance that way, but it's good to note.
If it is outputting PCM, why do you say that the player's DAC is important?
Some players have aftermarket mods that do allow direct DSD output. The (discontinued) Oppo blu-ray players did (via an i2s HDMI connector).
Or via the standard HDMI output as in other players.
Original PS3s with SACD support can also rip SACDs with minor software mods to play back on another device (as the PS3 itself could not stream DSD directly).
True but now there are many other players that will permit ripping SACDs.
 
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shaharidan

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True but now there are many other players that will permit ripping SACDs.

Thanks, I'm only interested in this for audio and I only need stereo playback.
As long as I can rip the SACD layer to my network drive and play it back via my streamer this option seems to make the most sense for me.

I really appreciate all the responses!
Mike
 

SegaCD

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Unless it is encoded/copy protected.

Right, which 99.9% of the standalone DACs do not support (do any at all?) and the AVRs that do have limited measured performance.

If it is outputting PCM, why do you say that the player's DAC is important?
I'm referencing OPs post which mentions the DAC as being important (implying that he's considering using the player's internal DAC), but I'm also saying that the pure DAC implementation isn't the only variable in this equation. You may have different performance whether the DSD is decoded in the DAC itself or the resampling occurs in the BD player's SW. Therefore, even though we know a DAC may have good/bad internal resampling algorithms from other implementations that are more bare metal, such performance may not apply to these more complex implementations. IIRC, the Oppos were one of the few that brought DSD out over I2S and let the DAC do the conversion which, in addition to the DAC being on a daughterboard, allowed the raw DSD to be output with relative ease. Man, I miss Oppo.

Or via the standard HDMI output as in other players.
...if connected to a compatible AVR which is limiting for many folks on this forum.

True but now there are many other players that will permit ripping SACDs.
This I did not know (guess I'm stuck in 2010 :) ). A bit of research brought this up: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/sony-blu-ray-players-used-for-sacd-ripping.26078/ . Players like the BDP-S390 are super common & cheap so this might be the best way to go if you're good with network streaming like you said (which I do believe is the best way to go!)
 

Kal Rubinson

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IIRC, the Oppos were one of the few the few that brought DSD out over I2S and let the DAC do the conversion which, in addition to the DAC being on a daughterboard, allowed the raw DSD to be output with relative ease. Man, I miss Oppo.
Me, too, but not Oppo will output I2S without a custom modification. It outputs HDMI, which is not the same thing.
I'm referencing OPs post which mentions the DAC as being important (implying that he's considering using the player's internal DAC), but I'm also saying that the pure DAC implementation isn't the only variable in this equation. You may have different performance whether the DSD is decoded in the DAC itself or the resampling occurs in the BD player's SW. Therefore, even though we know a DAC may have good/bad internal resampling algorithms from other implementations that are more bare metal, such performance may not apply to these more complex implementations.
Still don't get why the DAC in the Oppo has anything to do with digital output.
 

SegaCD

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Me, too, but not Oppo will output I2S without a custom modification. It outputs HDMI, which is not the same thing.

Exactly. Not natively, but without soldering which you can't say too much. :)

Still don't get why the DAC in the Oppo has anything to do with digital output.

It doesn't. Only if OP was picking out a player based on measured performance of the analog outputs. OP thought the internal DAC might have been a significant factor in his decision which it could be if he was planning on using the analog outputs. What I'm saying is even if multiple players have the same DAC & the usual PCM performance of that DAC is good, the DSD resampling algorithm could be done in SW so it can be pumped out to multiple i2s recipients (i.e. the DAC, the S/PDIF transceiver, etc) and it could be trash to reduce latency and/or from lazy programmers. SACD performance could be influenced by more than DAC selection and the usual review site standard player PCM performance. I have no data to support this actually happening IRL but its good to know that DSD just isn't always just passed thru unmodified to the internal DAC either. Its a player-by-player thing.

If OP uses digital outputs which are limited to PCM, then internal DAC performance doesn't matter but the internal resampling might.

If OP captures the raw DSD stream, then that can't be beat and is generally the way to go.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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Exactly. Not natively, but without soldering which you can't say too much.
Do you have a link?
If OP uses digital outputs which are limited to PCM, then internal DAC performance doesn't matter but the internal resampling might.
I didn't know we were talking about those outputs.
 

muslhead

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Buy a used oppo udp-103 and rip all your sacd to files.
Buy a capable streamer dac combo that will play those ripped dsf files and you are done.
That same oppo will act as a streamer and send the files via hdmi to a dsd capable avr of which there are some.
There are quite a few streamer/dac that will do the job.
Another option, depending upon how much money you want to spend is a raspberry \pi stream with a dsd capable dac
Lots of options once you have the 103 or other capalbe sacd ripper
 
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shaharidan

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Buy a used oppo udp-103 and rip all your sacd to files.
This is what I plan to do, but is there any reason to buy the oppo udp-103 over one of the less expensive Sony models if I'm just using it for ripping the SACDs?

I already use Roon and I have a streamer.
I realize Roon doesn't really have anything to do with the question, just adding info.

Thanks,
Mike
 

Kal Rubinson

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This is what I plan to do, but is there any reason to buy the oppo udp-103 over one of the less expensive Sony models if I'm just using it for ripping the SACDs?
Yes and no. The process for the Oppos (103, 105) is a bit simpler but the results will be the same.
 
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shaharidan

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Yes and no. The process for the Oppos (103, 105) is a bit simpler but the results will be the same.

Kal, I was planning to buy one of the Sonys on the HiFi SACD ripping thread.
Sony seemed to have the least expensive options.
Then follow the instructions here:
https://gist.github.com/willsthompson/a4ececdee9cbc4e369eb923e136a8243

The only difference I see with the Sony is it needs to be put in sleep mode.
Is that the "bit simpler" piece, or am I missing something else?

The Oppos really aren't that expensive, if it makes life easier I wouldn't have a problem spending the extra $.

Thanks,
Mike
 

muslhead

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This is what I plan to do, but is there any reason to buy the oppo udp-103 over one of the less expensive Sony models if I'm just using it for ripping the SACDs?

I already use Roon and I have a streamer.
I realize Roon doesn't really have anything to do with the question, just adding info.

Thanks,
Mike
I cant speak to the simplicity or success via the sony path, sorry.
I know the oppo, how well it works and how easy and fast it is.
A used 103 can be had for 200-400. Dont know about the sony.
Clearly, i would go with the cheapest option, all else being equal (I just dont know what all else is or if its equal). I use the oppo for a lot more than just ripping (sending mch dsd to my avr) so its an important system component for me.
I
 

raif71

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Unless it is encoded/copy protected.

If it is outputting PCM, why do you say that the player's DAC is important?
Or via the standard HDMI output as in other players.

True but now there are many other players that will permit ripping SACDs.
You mean the cheap Sony ubp players are unable to play sacd discs that are burned from iso sacds? Planning to get the ubp-x700 to play physical sacd discs.
 

Kal Rubinson

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Kal, I was planning to buy one of the Sonys on the HiFi SACD ripping thread.
Sony seemed to have the least expensive options.
Then follow the instructions here:
https://gist.github.com/willsthompson/a4ececdee9cbc4e369eb923e136a8243

The only difference I see with the Sony is it needs to be put in sleep mode.
Is that the "bit simpler" piece, or am I missing something else?
I've only used the PS3 or an Oppo, so I have no hand's on experience with the Sony sleep method. That said, yes, it is the "sleep mode" I was referring to. Also, it is not clear to me how that affects multiple rips. Does it mean that one has to re-insert the USB again and/or re-sleep the drive? I do not know but I do know that none of that applies to the Oppo procedure.
 

Kal Rubinson

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You mean the cheap Sony ubp players are unable to play sacd discs that are burned from iso sacds? Planning to get the ubp-x700 to play physical sacd discs.
I did not mean that because I was discussing playing/ripping factory-made SACDs. OTOH, I not presume that any modern player will "play sacd discs that are burned from iso sacds."
 
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