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Does audio gear need to be sustainable?

SIY

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I'm about to throw out a perfectly fine functioning ADC/DAC interface. Will a new one give me better performance? Nope. More efficiency? Nope. Better size or form factor? Nope.

Why throw it away, then? Because Apple has deprecated the interface to the computer. I just don't have a port to plug it into and no drivers to support it. Thanks, Apple!
 

DonH56

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My sources are engineering trade magazines and engineering friends working for Apple. Engineering thought they came up with a clever idea to extend battery life. The ramifications beyond that took them (engineers) by surprise, natch. So naive, maybe, especially in how it was handled (it should have been announced and made an option).

There are a number of good reasons for Apple's stock fall that are totally unrelated to the battery life SW.

As usual, I have no place in these kind of debates, outside my expertise and no point in arguing "religion" - Don
 
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svart-hvitt

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My sources are engineering trade magazines and engineering friends working for Apple. Engineering thought they came up with a clever idea to extend battery life. The ramifications beyond that took them (engineers) by surprise, natch. So naive, maybe, especially in how it was handled (it should have been announced and made an option).

There are a number of good reasons for Apple's stock fall that are totally unrelated to the battery life SW.

As usual, I have no place in these kind of debates, outside my expertise and no point in arguing "religion" - Don

Apple have a terrific group of engineers working for them. And most employees carry out their work with the best will, an intention to do well. So I am fascinated how firms - based on own experiences and as an analyst of firms and economics for over 20 years - how certain interests seem to outsmart the best will of honest, competent people of integrity «as if guided by an invisible hand». That is my position, my baggage into this debate.

And like Sherlock Holmes I agree that if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. I side with professor Lindahl who pointed out that planned obsolescence has a long history and is still pervasive across industries and firms. He seems to agree that Apple uses this strategy as well. However, this is not an Apple isolated thing, but I think Apple can be used as an example.

Al Gore is the longest sitting board member of Apple, so they should have known better. To me, it looks more like Al Gore, the red products, the U2 episode etc. are indications that we are witnessing what Milton Friedman called «hypocritical window-dressing»*.

*«It would be inconsistent of me to call on corporate executives to refrain from this hypocritical window-dressing because it harms the foundation of a free society».
Source: http://umich.edu/~thecore/doc/Friedman.pdf
 

Blumlein 88

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I'm about to throw out a perfectly fine functioning ADC/DAC interface. Will a new one give me better performance? Nope. More efficiency? Nope. Better size or form factor? Nope.

Why throw it away, then? Because Apple has deprecated the interface to the computer. I just don't have a port to plug it into and no drivers to support it. Thanks, Apple!
I assume it's FireWire. They do have some thunderbolt to FireWire adapters. I'm sure those are hit or miss, but they work with some gear.
 

JJB70

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Planned obsolescence and unreliability are not synonymous.

If I look at cars I don't think they've ever been more reliable as an overall average, and pieces of crap like the A6 I was daft enough to buy are very much the exception. Unless you're unlucky you can expect to buy a car and replace nothing more than the consumables and enjoy 100k+ miles of trouble free motoring. The engine is almost a "fit and forget" item except for oil and filter changes, and spark plugs on petrol engines and timing belts every few years. I remember growing up in the 70's car owners tended to be amateur mechanics to keep cars working, it's why Japanese cars became so popular. Things like TV's tend to last many years and require no servicing, the only reason PC's I've owned have needed replacing is they've fallen behind in terms of capability as technology has evolved. The only issues I've had with smart devices is batteries losing performance, even though the devices are sealed you can take them into a dealer and have new batteries fitted. So to be honest I really don't see that manufacturers are making poor quality products unless you go for the really low price entry level, and even there a lot of the stuff now on sale appears to serve purchasers well enough.

Obsolescence is something different. Things are different now but in the 80's, 90's and 00's computer technology was evolving so quickly that rapid obsolescence was all but inevitable. The only way you can avoid obsolescence is never to improve a technology, but who would that benefit? Audio lovers have benefited hugely from the evolution of technology as it has made genuine hi-fi sound quality available for peanuts from any device and democratised high quality sound. Surely that is a good thing? If people still want premium build and luxury finish companies like Luxman, Accuphase etc will still supply goods.
 

SIY

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With an adapter cable, the drivers then don't work. Apple says on their help forum, time to get rid of that old stuff and upgrade. So unfortunately, that's exactly what I'm having to do.

edit: the Firewire adapters I saw don't fit the older Firewire interface. Thanks, Apple!
 
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svart-hvitt

svart-hvitt

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Planned obsolescence and unreliability are not synonymous.

If I look at cars I don't think they've ever been more reliable as an overall average, and pieces of crap like the A6 I was daft enough to buy are very much the exception. Unless you're unlucky you can expect to buy a car and replace nothing more than the consumables and enjoy 100k+ miles of trouble free motoring. The engine is almost a "fit and forget" item except for oil and filter changes, and spark plugs on petrol engines and timing belts every few years. I remember growing up in the 70's car owners tended to be amateur mechanics to keep cars working, it's why Japanese cars became so popular. Things like TV's tend to last many years and require no servicing, the only reason PC's I've owned have needed replacing is they've fallen behind in terms of capability as technology has evolved. The only issues I've had with smart devices is batteries losing performance, even though the devices are sealed you can take them into a dealer and have new batteries fitted. So to be honest I really don't see that manufacturers are making poor quality products unless you go for the really low price entry level, and even there a lot of the stuff now on sale appears to serve purchasers well enough.

Obsolescence is something different. Things are different now but in the 80's, 90's and 00's computer technology was evolving so quickly that rapid obsolescence was all but inevitable. The only way you can avoid obsolescence is never to improve a technology, but who would that benefit? Audio lovers have benefited hugely from the evolution of technology as it has made genuine hi-fi sound quality available for peanuts from any device and democratised high quality sound. Surely that is a good thing? If people still want premium build and luxury finish companies like Luxman, Accuphase etc will still supply goods.

Planned obsolescence example: My Miele appliances say goodbye after 5-7 years. I wonder if that’s just bad luck or because they have 5 year guarantee. I still think professor Lindahl has got it right. He probably knows more about this than most.
 

JJB70

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Something I find in terms of the sustainability debate is that in some fields the debate is increasingly driven by eco-sustainability specialists with no in depth understanding of the science that they claim underpins their arguments. They are increasingly just people who do literature reviews and then do analytical modelling based on assumptions of the efficacy of the literature they've reviewed.

So if I look at the GHG debate, a lot of the experts are neither experts in upper atmospheric science, climatology, combustion thermodynamics and emissions, emissions abatement or any of the other hard technical and scientific disciplines. And that can become highly problematic. There is an emissions issue at the moment regarding Black Carbon. Black Carbon is a species of particulate matter but Black Carbon and PM are not synonymous. The eco-sustainability specialists cannot seem to grasp the simple fact that Black Carbon as defined by Bond et al (which for some reason a UN agency adopted as a definition) is not interchangeable with PM. And it gets worse. Since the Bond definition was adopted there have been a few measurement campaigns which contradict long held assumptions. You may think this would be cause to re-evaluate these assumptions and revise our understanding of the subject, but no. I've just read a long winded paper from an "expert" claiming this measured data should be considered statistical outliers and that their own literature review which predates these measurement campaigns should still be accepted as being correct. And policy makers are lapping it up. Then people wonder why I'm a bit of a cynic.
 

Ron Texas

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If you are worried about power consumption, cable boxes are one of the worst culprits. They draw over 30 watts 24/7.

As for repair-ability this issue goes way beyond Apple and non serviceable circuit boards. Just look at what is going on with John Deere farm equipment. Owners are locked out of the system completely and must rely on dealers for all repairs at inflated prices. The new (in the US) Ford Ranger pickup truck requires that a front wheel and a few other lesser components be removed before the oil filter can come off.

The summer tires on high performance cars last 13,000 miles if you are lucky. Turbocharging a gas engine reduces it's life by 30% (equal power output with lower displacement). When a wind turbine wears out, there isn't enough recyclable material in it to make it worth not abandoning. What happens to all the spent lithium batteries in EV's? There is no free lunch.
 
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JJB70

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Planned obsolescence example: My Miele appliances say goodbye after 5-7 years. I wonder if that’s just bad luck or because they have 5 year guarantee. I still think professor Lindahl has got it right. He probably knows more about this than most.

The thing is, unless you know how it was used and what went wrong it is meaningless to speculate on whether it was a reasonable failure (7 years is hardly failing just after you took it home from the shop) or planned obsolescence. My own kitchen and utility white goods are all Miele, well over ten years old and all rock solid.
 

SIY

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What happens to all the spent lithium batteries in EV's? There is no free lunch.

More than that, where does the charging electricity come from? That's right, fossil fuel plants (it's essentially impossible to build more nuclear plants here). So they actually represent a reduction in energy efficiency (Second Law is a bitch). The footprint for their manufacture and charge is rarely considered.

If a politician can't succinctly explain thermodynamic laws, which is true for 99% of them, we should not be surprised when "feels" are substituted for logic. After all, their constituencies rarely have any actual technical knowledge, but they sure know how to vote for politicians who say things that feel right to them.
 

Ron Texas

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More than that, where does the charging electricity come from? That's right, fossil fuel plants (it's essentially impossible to build more nuclear plants here). So they actually represent a reduction in energy efficiency (Second Law is a bitch). The footprint for their manufacture and charge is rarely considered.

If a politician can't succinctly explain thermodynamic laws, which is true for 99% of them, we should not be surprised when "feels" are substituted for logic. After all, their constituencies rarely have any actual technical knowledge, but they sure know how to vote for politicians who say things that feel right to them.

Climate change fanatics somehow think wind turbines can be built fast enough to replace all existing fossil fuel generation and most nuclear (for political reasons) in 20 years. The problem is that requires 350,000 new turbines per year, more than have been built since 1980. The wind turbines use lots of concrete and steel, both of which are associated with carbon emissions which are mostly unavoidable.
 

Sal1950

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With an adapter cable, the drivers then don't work. Apple says on their help forum, time to get rid of that old stuff and upgrade. So unfortunately, that's exactly what I'm having to do.
Pick up an old PC for free with Firewire or put a dirt cheap firewire card in it?

Planned obsolescence example: My Miele appliances say goodbye after 5-7 years.
Refrigerators used to last dang near forever, until Big Brother made them change refrigerants and banned R22. Compressors don't like the new stuff.

he summer tires on high performance cars last 13,000 miles if you are lucky.
You want tires that really stick to the pavement, they're soft, gummy, and wear fast. Just the price of performance. All tires have had the compromise decisions made for them depending on application.

Turbocharging a gas engine reduces it's life by 30% (equal power output with lower displacement).
It shouldn't, that's the repercussion of a manufacturer taking an engine designed to withstand X amount of HP and the boosting the same engine 30%, somethings got to give.

I run a stack of 5 1990's Adcom GFA 5x5 amps here. Being class A/B they sure do suck up the juice but I've saved the environment from them being trashed and not buying new ones.
So does that make me a bad or good guy?

Just can't please these environmental types.
 

Willem

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Well, in the Netherlands we are building lots of windmillss, and installing solar panels. For us, this is all the more urgent since we have to reduce and ultimately terminate natural gas extraction because it induces earthquakes in my region. Nobody is claiming this is easy, but rising sea levels are not an appealing prospect. None of this is done out of ignorance: our conservative minister responsible for climate policy is a university trained engineer. The two most prominent former politicians who have been asked to coordinate the national discussion are a former leader of the conservative party who is a former corporate lawyer and the former leader of our socialist party who is a former research scientist in nuclear physics. In short, there is a wide ranging consensus that this needs to be done.
The other half of the equation is to reduce energy consumption. Building codes are being adapted to mandate better insulation. The EU has banned halogen lights for domestic lighting, and that has given a tremendous boost to the development of led lights in all the different flavours and sizes to fit into existing lamps. Our new Miele dryer has a far more efficient heat pump instead of the traditional heating element, and our new washing machine and dishwasher are similarly far more efficient than the old ones. All these developements have been stimulated by regulation, sometimes voluntary, and sometimes imposed by law, and the market forces of scarcity and tax incentives. And indeed that is precisely what every economics textbook tells you that has to be done to deal with externalities.
 
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Ron Texas

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It shouldn't, that's the repercussion of a manufacturer taking an engine designed to withstand X amount of HP and the boosting the same engine 30%, somethings got to give.

In a perfect world it shouldn't, but the reality is reduced engine life. Perhaps at a high enough cost the same engine life can be achieved. Ever notice how Toyota avoids turbochargers?

I don't design engines for a living, but I think the hard part of the problem is blow by at the rings. The other components are easy to strengthen but with rings there are trade offs between friction and sealing. Smaller displacement engines with turbos use less fuel, but as the engines shrink, turbo boost goes up. FCA gets 270 hp out of a 2l 4 cyl turbo that goes into Jeeps. Those will not last long. The turbochargers themselves turn at 100,000 RPM. They last 140,000 miles at best, usually less.
 

Sal1950

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In a perfect world it shouldn't, but the reality is reduced engine life. Perhaps at a high enough cost the same engine life can be achieved. Ever notice how Toyota avoids turbochargers?

I don't design engines for a living, but I think the hard part of the problem is blow by at the rings. The other components are easy to strengthen but with rings there are trade offs between friction and sealing. Smaller displacement engines with turbos use less fuel, but as the engines shrink, turbo boost goes up. FCA gets 270 hp out of a 2l 4 cyl turbo that goes into Jeeps. Those will not last long. The turbochargers themselves turn at 100,000 RPM. They last 140,000 miles at best, usually less.
I'm not a fan of turbo's at all, they themselves tend to be unreliable due to the speed they turn and heat created. More appropriate to racing than street motors.
For forced induction I'd chose superchargers but they have their drawbacks also, main one being the HP it takes to drive them. They add 2 but take back 1. LOL But that's what FCA is using on their 700+ hp V8's and most other manufactures of high performance street cars.

Easy to strengthen yes, but do they? Yes that's expensive. Can't see why the Jeeps would have a problem with rings that use the same metalury as others making much higher power and turning rpms? Usually rod's, crankshaft, and main bearings are what suffers most from any large increase in load over the design limits. In race motors the leading cause of failure and catastrophic destruction. :p
 

Blumlein 88

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In a perfect world it shouldn't, but the reality is reduced engine life. Perhaps at a high enough cost the same engine life can be achieved. Ever notice how Toyota avoids turbochargers?

I don't design engines for a living, but I think the hard part of the problem is blow by at the rings. The other components are easy to strengthen but with rings there are trade offs between friction and sealing. Smaller displacement engines with turbos use less fuel, but as the engines shrink, turbo boost goes up. FCA gets 270 hp out of a 2l 4 cyl turbo that goes into Jeeps. Those will not last long. The turbochargers themselves turn at 100,000 RPM. They last 140,000 miles at best, usually less.
Well I don't like turbos for the same reason. There are plenty of Ford Ecoboost engines out there that have 200k miles or more otoh. So it can be done.
 
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Ron Texas

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Well I don't like turbos for the same reason. There are plenty of Ford Ecoboost engines out there that have 200k miles or more otoh. Do it can be done.

Actually, Ford had a lot of problems with the Ecoboost v6 in the Police Pursuit model. This was widely reported. They were regularly going bad at 110,000 miles. I have rented a few Escape's with the 1.6L Ecoboost. They were really slow, probably using low boost and were a pain to drive. If that's what it takes to get the motor to last, too bad.
 

JJB70

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I like the modern small capacity highly blown petrol engines, rev happy and plenty of torque and avoid big lumps under the hood. My complaint about them is that the published fuel figures seem to be woefully optimistic even by the standards of official fuel figures. My wife had a VW Golf VII with the 1.4TSI 140 engine and DSG gear box, on paper the combined mpg figure was about 65, something like 74 extra urban. We were getting about 40 - 45 out of it despite cylinder deactivation tech and a 7 speed auto gear box with all sorts of fancy blue motion tech. Nice engine though, spritely without being hot.
 

JJB70

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On renewable and clean emissions tech my tip is to watch China. They've been pumping money into low emissions technology (both because they realise they have an environmental problem, and because they see the commercial opportunities), once they feel they're in a position to lead the market I think they'll do a very sudden volte-face and become the country banging the table demanding speedier action from the rest of the world.
 
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