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does anyone listen to Taylor Swift? tell me what the draw is

Theta

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No, nothing of the sort. You said:


So I responded:


In other words, I think the idea of quantifying 'genius' is probably rubbish. You suggested that 'musical ability' can be quantified, so I wanted to know how you see that being relevant to popular or experimental music. Is musical ability equivalent to instrumental virtuosity? Where do composition, creativity and originality fit in? For popular music, songwriting ability is likely also important? And so on.
We don't disagree that much, being an instrumental virtuoso is not enough or even necessary to be considered a musical genius. However, you must have a knowlege of the structure of music which is also mathematical. No composition or creativity is possible without it. You cannot play any four notes and claim it is a chord.
On the Beetles analogy: Paul is a musical genius, the only capable and credible musician in that band. Lennon was a brilliant song writer but not a musician.
 

Svet Angelov

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let he who is without hate cast the first facepalm emoji

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TS apologists are smoking only the purest of crack. Sorry (but not really).
 

antcollinet

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Someone should look at who gets the actual songwriting credits. If it's her, I'm still suspect, because that skill can be farmed out.
The reason she has been able to retake control of her music by re-recording the albums, is because she is the songwriter.
 
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Axo1989

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Someone should look at who gets the actual songwriting credits. If it's her, I'm still suspect, because that skill can be farmed out.

Well @antcollinet has basically answered, but it's also obvious from the NPR tiny desk video (posted upthread by @Anton D) that Swift writes (many/most of) her own songs. I think pursuant to my exchange with @Theta that she has a genius for pop songwriting.

let he who is without hate cast the first facepalm emoji

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TS apologists are smoking only the purest of crack. Sorry (but not really).

I can say idiomatically that I hate country as a genre, but I don't think I've posted on a thread about a country singer. I do like my crack pure though. At least, I prefer not to snort baking soda. :)

We don't disagree that much, being an instrumental virtuoso is not enough or even necessary to be considered a musical genius. However, you must have a knowlege of the structure of music which is also mathematical. No composition or creativity is possible without it. You cannot play any four notes and claim it is a chord.

Yes mostly agree there. I'd add that many people learn their instruments by playing notes, scales and pieces and may or may not go far into music theory. Also, traditional music was passed down via praxis rather than theory. Whether this allows for genius is an interesting question. I may be idiosyncratic here, but I think genius is expressed in the work, not embodied in the person.

On the Beetles analogy: Paul is a musical genius, the only capable and credible musician in that band. Lennon was a brilliant song writer but not a musician.

You pretty much lose me here. Your definition of 'musician' is certainly idiosyncratic. The conventional definition is someone who plays an instrument, especially as an occupation. All of the Beatles qualify. Saying Harrison wasn't a musician appears quite odd. You are arguing for some higher threshold of musicianship, so 'musician' needs a modifier in that case for anyone else to understand your argument, I think.

Wrt 'genius' there must be some agenda/subtext I'm missing re your advocacy for McCartney? The Beatles are history for me, but Lennon-McCartney certainly made an unusually talented songwriting team. However listening to eg Wings for me is a puzzle, who could possibly like this insipid dross and why? It's like post-Genesis what's-his-name. The question of genius is separate from taste I agree, and those reactions are obviously my taste only, but I'd like to know how we establish Paul as a musical genius, in terms of his post-Beatles output (if that's what you meant).

I'm asking here because you presumably don't accept that Taylor has a genius for pop songwriting (whereas I think she does, but quite independent from my taste, which is not for her material). If I'm interpreting correctly.
 
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Rockfella

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Can't bear any of her songs and can't get enough of Dua Lipa :)
 

Axo1989

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Can't bear any of her songs and can't get enough of Dua Lipa :)

Idk, that's radically optimistic. :)

Untypically, I've been giving some pop a good run lately. I like my divas with some aggro. And love a good outtro.


... defs fun commentaries on stardom.
 
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Theta

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Well @antcollinet has basically answered, but it's also obvious from the NPR tiny desk video (posted upthread by @Anton D) that Swift writes (many/most of) her own songs. I think pursuant to my exchange with @Theta that she has a genius for pop songwriting.



I can say idiomatically that I hate country as a genre, but I don't think I've posted on a thread about a country singer. I do like my crack pure though. At least, I prefer not to snort baking soda. :)



Yes mostly agree there. I'd add that many people learn their instruments by playing notes, scales and pieces and may or may not go far into music theory. Also, traditional music was passed down via praxis rather than theory. Whether this allows for genius is an interesting question. I may be idiosyncratic here, but I think genius is expressed in the work, not embodied in the person.



You pretty much lose me here. Your definition of 'musician' is certainly idiosyncratic. The conventional definition is someone who plays an instrument, especially as an occupation. All of the Beatles qualify. Saying Harrison wasn't a musician appears quite odd. You are arguing for some higher threshold of musicianship, so 'musician' needs a modifier in that case for anyone else to understand your argument, I think.

Wrt 'genius' there must be some agenda/subtext I'm missing re your advocacy for McCartney? The Beatles are history for me, but Lennon-McCartney certainly made an unusually talented songwriting team. However listening to eg Wings for me is a puzzle, who could possibly like this insipid dross and why? It's like post-Genesis what's-his-name. The question of genius is separate from taste I agree, and those reactions are obviously my taste only, but I'd like to know how we establish Paul as a musical genius, in terms of his post-Beatles output (if that's what you meant).

I'm asking here because you presumably don't accept that Taylor has a genius for pop songwriting (whereas I think she does, but quite independent from my taste, which is not for her material). If I'm interpreting correctly.
My ten year old grand daughter writes cute poems and I encourage that, but she is not in the same league as Verlaine.
 

Theta

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To qualify as a musical genius you must look at one's entire body of work. Also the opinion of their peers who are more qualified to juge than the general public.
 

Axo1989

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My ten year old grand daughter writes cute poems and I encourage that, but she is not in the same league as Verlaine.

Ok, you're not responding seriously.

To qualify as a musical genius you must look at one's entire body of work. Also the opinion of their peers who are more qualified to juge than the general public.

Yes we look at bodies of work, because people have those. But you aren't saying anything: what are we looking for? Peer approval? Are there no salient characteristics beyond that?
 

Axo1989

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No matter the era, or the artists, it's always amusing reading the olds commentating on modern pop music.

I'd never checked her age actually, looks like we were born in the same year. Actually thought she was younger. I'm still older though, by 6 months. Listening to her for the purpose of this thread means her stuff has crept into my Apple Music recommendations so today some remixes:

 

Svet Angelov

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'You smokеd, then ate seven bars of chocolate
We declared Charlie Puth should be a bigger artist
I scratch your head, you fall asleep
Like a tattooed golden retriever'

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"We would pick a decade
We wished we could live in instead of this
I'd say the 1830s but without all the racists"

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"You just need to take several seats and then try to restore the peace
And control your urges to scream about all the people you hate
'Cause shade never made anybody less gay so"

--------------------------------

Maybe if i were 20 years younger and had a debilitating form of brain rot, I would find these lyrics worthy of the "greatest pop act of the 21st century".
That is, if I could first ignore the fact that she can't really sing, her inability to play any instruments enough to be worthy of note, or her snake-like "defence" of LGBTQIA+ people which has been condemned by people who actually fight for the cause and don't just use it to try to further a musical career!
 

Anton D

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All this thread is missing is Jeff Albertson and Ignatius J Reilly.

Although, a bunch of grown ass men getting spun out over a pop singer is pretty hilarious.

What’s next, an expose’ of Billie Eilish’s vocal range? :facepalm:
 

Axo1989

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All this thread is missing is Jeff Albertson and Ignatius J Reilly.

Although, a bunch of grown ass men getting spun out over a pop singer is pretty hilarious.

What’s next, an expose’ of Billie Eilish’s vocal

Surely the combined weight of learned ASR elders and profound YouTuber expertise can put paid to the perfidy of this “pop music” for good.
 
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CapMan

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BTW, if there was any doubt she's using Autotune:

The point he makes about her natural voice being able to use subtle inflexions to create emotions is so true - Autotune just robs the singer of this tool . I don't under why it is done ...
 

Vacceo

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The point he makes about her natural voice being able to use subtle inflexions to create emotions is so true - Autotune just robs the singer of this tool . I don't under why it is done ...
I'm probably dead as I fell nothing.
 
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