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Does anyone know what "stuffing" is used in hosepipe sized or thicker cables?

fatoldgit

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I haven't changed my interconnects (or even speaker cables) for 15+ years and as I have been using fully balanced components forever, my interconnects are Kimber KCAG which are not shielded, have no outside sheath and are just the wire conductors covered in a clear insulator with the three wires weaved together, as shown below (not to scale!!!... much thinner in real life):

1736405505036.png



Now I like to browse sites like "Mono and Stereo" and "Six Moons" to see how the "other half" live.

On either site, I often see examples of cables (see below) where the diameter of the overall cables is very large (in comparison to the conductors)

Potentially power cables might have some thick conductors which contribute to some of the girth but for stuff like XLR and RCA cables, no way.

So given my current interconnects are about as skinny as you can get, I always wonder what the heck is inside hosepipe sized cables and what "science" is used to justify whatever they are stuffed with. And obviously we have seen some with anaconda like proportions.

Anyone know the general cable issues that these designs attempt to overcome (see additional post below)



1736405002235.png
 
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As a clarification, I generally know what goes in as many vendors websites list it but I never seen a cross section.

For example, the power cable above has the stuff listed below... but the vendors never explain the reasons.

For example, they use different types of conductors with varying sizes but never explain why.

They use six layers of insulation but never explain why.

They make the claim that the design prevents heat buildup (which to quote "Makes the sound stress free Without harshness") but I doubt any amp would pull such loads as to cause heat build up.

And of course they need some special tech name ( “FBE” conductor technology - Frequency balance evolution) to make it sound revolutionary.


• “FBE” conductor technology (Frequency balance evolution)

• Conductors are divided into 3 groups:
Line : Conductors are groups that meet the low, middle and high frequency. (total conductor size Ø 9.0 sq.mm.)
Neutral : Conductors are groups that meet the low, middle and high frequency. (total conductor size Ø 9.0 sq.mm.)
Ground : Conductors are groups that meet the low, middle and high frequency. (total conductor size Ø 5.0 sq.mm.)

• Combining 6 types of conductors , 6 sizes of conductors.
1.Pure Copper OFC ( 25 % )
2.Pure Copper OCC ( 40% )
3.Pure Copper OFC Silver Plate ( 5 % )
4.Pure Copper OFC Gold Plate ( 10 % )
5.Pure Copper OCC Silver Plate ( 10 % )
6.Pure Copper OCC Gold Plate ( 10 % )

• 6 layers of insulation covering
Layer 1. PTFE Maintain the purity of the conductor.
Layer 2. Air Tube prevents moisture absorption , Prevents crushing or bending.
Layer 3. Shield Pure Copper to draw signal to the ground.
Layer 4. Insulation prevents signal complications.
Layer 5. Magnetic field insulation.
Layer 6. Insulation prevents static electricity.

• Wattgate 350Evo & 330 Evo Gold plated brass Block.

• Interior design principles to prevent heat buildup in the conductor Makes the sound stress free Without harshness.
 
There is no one answer. I remember one a decade back that turned out to have hose pipe, as in garden hose pipe with normal wires inside with that woven TechFlex covering. One odd one had some kind of tubing with normal wires inside and some powered sintered material of some metal. Some may have shielding. Some of it uses a complex weave with layers of teflon or teflon air to space around the conductors. You'll likely find all sorts of things.

Bottom line is don't worry about it. It isn't doing anything for you at least in 99% of those products except convincing you to pay big bucks. Bigger bucks than is needed for any level of sound quality.
 
There is no one answer. I remember one a decade back that turned out to have hose pipe, as in garden hose pipe with normal wires inside with that woven TechFlex covering. One odd one had some kind of tubing with normal wires inside and some powered sintered material of some metal. Some may have shielding. Some of it uses a complex weave with layers of teflon or teflon air to space around the conductors. You'll likely find all sorts of things.

Bottom line is don't worry about it. It isn't doing anything for you at least in 99% of those products except convincing you to pay big bucks. Bigger bucks than is needed for any level of sound quality.

I don't worry about it..happy with my thin flexible cables but as noted above... they never (well not what I have seen) provide the scientific/engineering rational as to how they arrived at the design... aside from often stating hyperbole like it took 10 years of R&D.

It just appears to me (as the example above shows) that they stick as much stuff in as they can to attempt to justify the cost/bamboozle punters with "science"... never mind the logic, feel the width.

Was just wondering if anyone has seen inside these things and got an idea if any of it made any sense.

Peter
 
I suspect it varies between manufactures. I've seen various claims about the magical properties of different dielectrics, PVC, PE, foamed PE, PTFE, etc., used in "audiophile" cables.

Some cables use cotton as a filler, which can make it more flexible:

1736410171803.png
1736410274415.png


I had a whole bunch of fancy speaker cables, RCA interconnects and even some "audiophile" power cables. When I changed to a set-up with active monitors, sold all the silly stuff and used standard power cables and some decent quality Mogami star quad XLR cables.
 
Unicorn hair ... or something else not worth your time thinking about :)
 
Was just wondering if anyone has seen inside these things and got an idea if any of it made any sense.

Peter
So here is the key part. "if any of it made any sense". It only makes sense to spend more money and put up with the inconvenience of big phat cables if they improve the sound or do something else useful like last longer.

They don't improve the sound. What few might have a thin technical basis usually do so in regard to megahertz frequency effects which make ZERO difference for audio.

As for longevity regular cables last so long it make no difference. Some cables like Canare or such cost more than bulk basic cable, but have a more supple structure making them nicer to use especially in studios. But they aren't crazy expensive. Some are more rugged for live sound use and again aren't crazy expensive.

So what else is there for such cables to make any sense?
 
I built these as a lark some years back. 100% free of stuff(ing). :)
They work pretty well -- a bit delicate, though.





Nothing but the finest: "Radio Shack" enamel-insulated 30 ga magnet wire, and Radio Shack RCA plugs, of course.
Truly, this is "High Fidelity"! :cool:;)

I made a couple of v2.0 variants with Teflon tubing around the outside -- back in the days when I had relatively unfettered access to copious amounts of Teflon tubing in many different sizes. :rolleyes:
 
I built these as a lark some years back. 100% free of stuff(ing). :)
They work pretty well -- a bit delicate, though.





Nothing but the finest: "Radio Shack" enamel-insulated 30 ga magnet wire, and Radio Shack RCA plugs, of course.
Truly, this is "High Fidelity"! :cool:;)

I made a couple of v2.0 variants with Teflon tubing around the outside -- back in the days when I had relatively unfettered access to copious amounts of Teflon tubing in many different sizes. :rolleyes:

I made some similarly silly cables using some cotton insulated, solid core hookup wire:

1736432659509.png
 
There was a guy a while back on another forum who did a dissection of Virtual Dynamics cables. It was 18awg copper surrounded by white aquarium pebbles/gravel to pad out the hose.
 
There was a guy a while back on another forum who did a dissection of Virtual Dynamics cables. It was 18awg copper surrounded by white aquarium pebbles/gravel to pad out the hose.
That was almost 20 years ago. I remember being on Head-Fi when that thread went "viral".
 
I haven't changed my interconnects (or even speaker cables) for 15+ years and as I have been using fully balanced components forever, my interconnects are Kimber KCAG which are not shielded, have no outside sheath and are just the wire conductors covered in a clear insulator with the three wires weaved together, as shown below (not to scale!!!... much thinner in real life):

View attachment 419826


Now I like to browse sites like "Mono and Stereo" and "Six Moons" to see how the "other half" live.

On either site, I often see examples of cables (see below) where the diameter of the overall cables is very large (in comparison to the conductors)

Potentially power cables might have some thick conductors which contribute to some of the girth but for stuff like XLR and RCA cables, no way.

So given my current interconnects are about as skinny as you can get, I always wonder what the heck is inside hosepipe sized cables and what "science" is used to justify whatever they are stuffed with. And obviously we have seen some with anaconda like proportions.

Anyone know the general cable issues that these designs attempt to overcome (see additional post below)



View attachment 419825
In my opinion, the only serious dielectric for "thick" cables is air. Everything else can only be worse and, above all, heavier.
Otherwise, there is no point in making the cable thick and heavy.

PE, PP, TPE and PTFE are among the best dielectrics, don't have to cost a fortune and can be kept thin.
I would generally avoid PVC for environmental and health reasons.
 
On those stupid twisted pair RCA cables, Jay Leno would have said "What could possibly go wrong?"
Al RCA cables should be coax cables. End of story.
* * * * * * * * * *
PE, PP, TPE and PTFE are great dielectrics above 100 mega hertz.
But for audio cables, they are only good at interference frequencies.
Actually PVC is better for audio frequencies.
And just about every other cord in a home, is made out of PVC.
 
On those stupid twisted pair RCA cables, Jay Leno would have said "What could possibly go wrong?"
Al RCA cables should be coax cables. End of story.
* * * * * * * * * *
PE, PP, TPE and PTFE are great dielectrics above 100 mega hertz.
But for audio cables, they are only good at interference frequencies.
Actually PVC is better for audio frequencies.
And just about every other cord in a home, is made out of PVC.
PVC is always a poorer dielectric.
There are no PVC cables in my household and the only reason to use PVC is because it is incredibly cheap and people are stupid enough to let it into their living space, and not just for cables.

A few facts about PVC
- Vinyl chloride is proven to be carcinogenic (especially testicular cancer, liver cancer and brain tumors), mutagenic and can lead to disorders of the endocrine (hormone) system in humans.
- Not biodegradable
- Toxic to the environment, animals and humans, PVC is one of the plastics that are harmful to health and the environment at every stage of its life cycle - from production to disposal.
- PVC causes copper to oxidize more quickly.
- Significantly poorer dielectric than other plastics.
- Significantly poorer mechanical properties than other plastics.
- Thicker and heavier cables with the same insulation voltage.
– Important point, it is super cheap, both in terms of material and production, that is why it is used, all other properties are inferior.
A thick bundle of PVC cables behind an audio cabinet or rack is particularly ideal, as heat builds up there and these cables can evaporate easily.

But with all the environmental toxins these days, including in food, this no longer matters that much.
 
PVC is always a poorer dielectric.
Make that high frequency dielectric. That's exactly way it's good for audio cables, but not the high frequency interference that want to use the audio cables as a path to your equipment.
* * * * * * * * *
What do you do with the countless items in a home that have a fixed PVC cord?
 
Make that high frequency dielectric. That's exactly way it's good for audio cables, but not the high frequency interference that want to use the audio cables as a path to your equipment.
* * * * * * * * *
What do you do with the countless items in a home that have a fixed PVC cord?

And the hundreds if not thousands of feet of THHN and/or Romex in the walls?
 
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