Does anyone else like FM?

[Hue Man]

SomaFm (out of California) is still broadcasting it's large number of theme curated channels for different musical tastes completely free. There are no paid commercials although the founder periodically does a station name I.D. or adds a brief listener support donation suggestion. Audio quality available varies with what your source is so it's worth checking into those options. Many music streaming providers also host the SomaFm's broadcasts.

View attachment 457350

Thanks for the suggestion. This looks like it's going to take weeks to sort through. Tons of stations that I doubt could exist solely over the air (even in San Fran). I had thought about creating a thread about radio (in the form of streaming) being the next cool retro thing like cassettes. It's nice to sometimes have someone else choose what to hear as opposed to going through listener's block. Over the air radio sucks in most areas and can't compete with the variety of stations. Recently purchased my retirement system without a tuner. Of course I still have a radio for Packer game announcers and pre/post game.

 

[LF78]

DAB+ has done little to improve things, as the multiplexes are still overcrowded. Quantity over quality.

Personally I think DAB+ quality is much better than old FM, at least for in car listening. In my experience it's also more reliable when driving under tunnels, remote areas, etc... (of course being digital either it works or it's completely silent).

 

[audio_tony]

Personally I think DAB+ quality is much better than old FM, at least for in car listening. In my experience it's also more reliable when driving under tunnels, remote areas, etc... (of course being digital either it works or it's completely silent).

DAB / DAB+ quality can be good, when decent bitrates are maintained. But as I stated in my post, here in the UK some stations are as low as 32kbps (mostly voice stations) and music stations as low as 64kbps (mono) which results in appalling quality, even on DAB+.

 

[EJ3]

Maybe so but we do have some really good country music FM stations here in Central FL.
When I cruise around with a couple friends who are using one of the various subscription stations they can be really great.
But I'm not sending out another monthly check for yet another subscription, baloney.
This crap has gotten completely out of hand for an old Army Veteran living on my retirement SSI and a bit more..
Pi-s on them. LOL

I do not know why this came out this way but, my guess is that 5000 never had a good tuner combined with a good antenna & a good radio station. Copyright ©2001-2022 Tuner Information Center. Permission is hereby granted to quote our text so long as proper credit is given.: Rankings after Shootout #81: 1 PLUS: -C- Accuphase T-109V - Very natural sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound, smooth extended highs. 1 (TIE): -C- Kenwood L-02T - Most natural sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound. 1 (TIE): -C- Burmester 978 - Natural, open and airy sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound with nice extended highs. 4: -C- Sansui TU-919 - The prince who could be king. 5: -C- Sansui TU-X1 - Very good sound top to bottom. Big soundstage, three-dimensional. Very slight diffuse sound. 6: -C- Audiolab 8000T - Good bass, natural but diffuse sound, sweet extended highs. 7: -C- Philips AH6731 - A very natural, neutral sound. Stereo separation best with a good signal. 8: -C- Revox B760 - Great bass, lifelike midrange and extended highs. 9: -M- Mitsubishi DA-F20 - Quick, punchy bass, open, lively midrange and extended highs. 10: -M- Kenwood KT-5020 - Great bass and midrange and extended, sweet treble. Again, why pay more? 11: -M- Kenwood KT-990D - Smooth, clean sound that always pleased. Why pay more? 12: -M- Meridian Model 104 - Excellent, natural sound, good bass, no to DX games. 13: -M- Meridian Model 504 - Good bass, excellent midrange with smooth, just-right highs. 14: -M- Kenwood L-1000T - Good bass, punchy midrange, sweet extended highs. 15: -M- Sansui TU-X701 - Great-sounding midrange, bass OK, softer highs next to the L-02T. 16: -M- Luxman T-117 - Very good-sounding tuner. No real faults, top to bottom. Not as three-dimensional as the L-02T and gives up some bass richness. 17: -M- Sansui TU-717 - Good bass and midrange with nice "depth" to the soundstage. More forward than the L-02T. 18: -M- B&K TS-108 - Very nice midrange, good bass and nice, extended highs. 19: -M- Technics ST-9038 - Very good bass, nice midrange, smooth treble. 20: -M- Magnum Dynalab MD-108 - Bass OK, very good imaging and realistic midrange, extended but forward highs. 21: -M- Kenwood KT-917 - Good bass, midrange and treble. A very pleasant sound but more one-dimensional when placed next to the L-02T. 22: -M- Sansui TU-S9 - Smooth, natural sound. A budget bargain. 23: -M- Kenwood KT-1100 - Quite tuneful, but flatter soundstage than the L-02T. 24: -M- McIntosh MR 80 - Good bass, lively midrange and pleasant highs. More one-dimensional than the L-02T. 25: -M- Sanyo Plus T35 - Good bass, laidback midrange and extended, pleasant highs. 26: -M- Technics ST-G7 - Very nice bass, articulate midrange, forward but nice upper range. 27: -M- Pioneer F-99X - Follows behind the big bass dogs but the midrange and treble are where it's at. Sweet, clean, quiet and to be copied. 28: -M- Kenwood KT-3300D - Very good bass, slightly diffuse light mids and pleasant extended highs. A laidback, nice listen. 29: -M- Pioneer F-90 - Great sonics with a slightly lighter sonic presentation than the top dogs. Upper midrange and treble are top-notch. 30: -M- Sansui TU-D99X - Good bass. Bass, midrange and treble work well together for a balanced sound. 31: -M- Hitachi FT-007 - Clean, balanced sound, but less dynamic than the L-02T. 32: -M- Sony ST-J88B - Good bass, pleasing midrange, slightly forward and sweet treble. 33: -M- Linn Kremlin - OK bass; articulate, precise sound; good high frequency. Midrange, bass loses some natural warmth. 34: -M- Restek Metric - Excellent imaging, bass and highs. Midrange gave up some to other tuners. 35: -M- Onix TU39 - Dynamic, smooth, the midrange give up some "life" to others. Some added sparkle in the highs. 36: -M- Perreaux TU3 - Nice balanced sound. Gives up some richness and dynamics to the L-02T. 37: -M- Magnum Dynalab FT-101 - Good all-around sound, treble very slightly forward. 38: -M- Kenwood L-07TII - Good all-around sound but loses some inner detail. 39: -M- Accuphase T-109 - Great bass, dry midrange, pleasant but slightly forward treble. 40: -M- Magnum Dynalab FT-101A Etude - A good, balanced sound, but slightly dry. 41: -M- Technics ST-8077 - Good bass, midrange OK. Nice treble presentation. 42: -M- Technics ST-8080 - Good bass, good midrange, forward highs but not unpleasant. 43: -M- Nikko Gamma V - Very good bass, good imaging, treble forward but not unpleasant. 44: -M- Kenwood KT-8300 - Good bass and dynamics, with a slightly forward upper midrange and treble. 45: -M- Onkyo T-4500 - Slightly lighter but a pleasing sound. Neutral, top to bottom, with nice highs. 46: -M- Onkyo T-9090II - Pleasant sound, good bass, but not as dynamic as some tuners. Great DX machine. 47: -M- NAD 4155 - Good, punchy bass. Light, articulate mids with well-mated highs. 48: -M- Pioneer F-91 - Very good bass punch and control, articulate midrange with forward highs. May be a good tuner for a large room. 49: -M- Pioneer TX-9800 - Rich bass presentation. Good midrange with a treble slightly forward that took away from the total picture. 50: -M- Tandberg 3011A - Good bass, midrange a little light, sweet treble. Very good imaging. 51: -M- Sansui TU-417 - A most pleasant sound, bottom to top. Needs good signals. 52: -M- Carver TX-11b - Punchy bass, clean highs and treble. 53: -M- Sumo Charlie - Punchy bass, good midrange, slightly rolled-off treble. 54: -M- Revox B260 - Rich bass and lower midrange. Good imaging. Three-dimensional. The highs are a little too much for my personal taste. The high rating reflects its other positive sound qualities. 55: -M- Yamaha CT-7000 - Warm-sounding bass, pleasant midrange and highs. Highs a little rolled-off. 56: -M- Sequerra Model 1 - Harmonically rich bass and lower midrange. Very seductive, but if you want accuracy, shop elsewhere. 57: -M- Magnum Dynalab FT-11 "NEW" - Good sound, natural midrange, treble nice, loose bass. 58: -M- Kenwood KT-7300 - Punchy bass, pleasant mids and highs. Slight loss of ambience. 59: -M- Onkyo T-4310R - Pleasant, inoffensive sound, good imaging. Good digital DXing tuner. 60: -M- Magnum Dynalab FT-101A - Pleasant light, airy sound. Lacks bass dynamics. 61: -M- Realistic TM-1001 - Sweet treble, pleasant mids, but the bass is not as full and dynamic as the big dogs. 62: -M- Yamaha T-2 - Very pleasant and listenable. This may be the cutoff tuner between the keepers and the also-rans. 63: Revox B261 - Punchy bass, pleasant enough but slightly forward mids and highs. 64: Pioneer TX-9500II - Clean, articulate sound. Lighter sonic presentation against the L-02T. 65: SAE Mark VI - Inoffensive sound, good background music. A mini-Sequerra. 66: Denon TU-850 - Good sound, midrange just right, treble sweet, slightly bass-shy. 67: Sansui TU-217 - Good sound when reception is strong. 68: Kenwood L-01T - Good sound, midrange slightly forward, good bass. 69: Phase Linear Model 5000 Series Two - Bass-shy, pleasant midrange and treble. 70: Magnum Dynalab FT-11 "OLD" - Good bass, dry midrange, treble OK. 71: Quad FM4 - Very nice midrange, good resolution, extended treble, rolled off bass. 72: Technics ST-9030 - Inoffensive but bland. 73: Naim NAT 01 - Bass OK, midrange OK, treble sweet. 74: Luxman T-115 - Good bass, midrange OK, treble slightly forward. 75: Nakamichi ST-7 - Muffled bass, forward midrange, highs soft and inoffensive. 76: Marantz 2130 - OK bass, midrange and treble forward and "light" sounding. 77: McIntosh MR 78 - Good bass, slightly electronic sound. 78: Fanfare FT-1A - Best through the low-output jacks, clean but bright midrange, lacks bass power. 79: Kenwood KT-7500 - Flat soundstage, better sound can be found. One-note bass. More boring than unpleasant in a long listening session. 80: Cambridge Audio T500 - Bass light, midrange forward and lacks focus, highs OK. 81: Kyocera T-910 - Pleasant sound, but what's that ringing in my ears? 82: SAE 8000 - Not irritating but not involving, either. Too much background noise. 83: Kenwood KT-815 - Bass thin, treble forward. It cries out for a new audio stage. 84: Denon TU-600 - Good sound, but not recommended because of reception problems.

Copyright ©2001-2022 Tuner Information Center. Permission is hereby granted to quote our text so long as proper credit is given.

 

[Sal1950]

My last pre-pro, Marantz 7703 had built-in DAB capability but I found signal strength to be somewhat of a issue here.
After it was killed from a lightning strike I got my Denon X4700H to replace it and was surprised to find it didn't include DAB capability
but would require some sort of add-on outrigger box ? Not that I need it but again I was surprised a fairly expensive AVR like this would
skimp out on a small bit of circuit that I would have thought to be a no-brainer in 2022?
I guess there's little call from the general public that they feel is can be ignored?

 

[xanalog]

...but I found signal strength to be somewhat of a issue here.

Would the reason be:

USA radio broadcasters have DAB radio that broadcasts using in-band on-channel technology.
The technology means these radios broadcast analog (FM/AM) and digital signals simultaneously.
This is why DAB has limited availability and adoption in the USA.
From <https://radiofidelity.com/does-the-usa-have-dab-radio/>

?

 

[Sal1950]

Would the reason be:

?

Maybe ???

 

[RayDunzl]

My AM/FM/HDRadio.

Analog or Digital broadcasts can be output as Analog or Digital as desired.

I use the digital outs.

 

[Sal1950]

I do not know why this came out this way but, my guess is that 5000 never had a good tuner combined with a good antenna & a good radio station.

I'd feel a lot better about this "shootout" if it wasn't just all subjective opinions with no measurements.

 

[EJ3]

I'd feel a lot better about this "shootout" if it wasn't just all subjective opinions with no measurements.

Me too, but that's all I found when looking.

There is the fact that they are not trying to sell us one, though.

But I also know that some of the people involved have some pretty good measurement capability.
So: it could have been better for us.
Maybe they felt that there was not enough interest in the measurements these days to make it worthwhile.

I do believe that it gives a relatively good idea of ones that might not be so good & what might be a good thrift store find.
And what might just not be worth messing with to refurbish, if you already owned it & it went out on you.

 

[Sal1950]

Me too, but that's all I found when looking.

The one thing I saw as a bright spot was the ranking of the Mitsubishi DA-F20 at #9 on the 84 numbered list.
It was my last free standing tuner and I thought it sounded truly excellent with the big local Chicago stations.

 

[audio_tony]

The one thing I saw as a bright spot was the ranking of the Mitsubishi DA-F20

Wow, was that thing crammed with tech or a somewhat empty box? It's huge!

Oh wow, that's busy! (I Googled it) - although I can't help feeling a few mods have been done to this one.

 

[Ralph_Cramden]

Interesting history about the transmitting side

The Alford Antenna – Engineering Radio

www.engineeringradio.us

 

[Sal1950]

Wow, was that thing crammed with tech or a somewhat empty box? It's huge!

Oh wow, that's busy! (I Googled it) - although I can't help feeling a few mods have been done to this one.

View attachment 457599

??? What the hell is that? Some wacko tube modified thing, no idea what it is?
This is a DA-F20

 

[audio_tony]

??? What the hell is that? Some wacko tube modified thing, no idea what it is?

Yes, I did hint that it had been modified, and further research shows it's had a valve output stage fitted

I found the same pic you did and was about to edit my post.

 

[Sal1950]

Yes, I did hint that it had been modified, and further research shows it's had a valve output stage fitted

I found the same pic you did and was about to edit my post.

Appears to be much more than that.
What's with the big heat sinks, etc hanging off the back panel?
A real Frankenstein job there.

 

[audio_tony]

What's with the big heat sinks, etc hanging off the back panel?

Take another careful look. That's another device underneath it!!

Looks like an amp of some sort.

 

[Sal1950]

Take another careful look. That's another device underneath it!!

Looks like an amp of some sort.

OK Still sort of brakes my heart. The DA-F20 is one of the leading tuners from that time and to see
someone hack it up like that ticks me off.

 

[norman bates]

Just picked up a proton 440 tuner.....
Didn't make the list.
Nor did my McIntosh mr73.
I don't think my ears will care, lol.

That Mitsubishi looks awesome !!!!

 

[EJ3]

Just picked up a proton 440 tuner.....
Didn't make the list.
Nor did my McIntosh mr73.
I don't think my ears will care, lol.

Copyright ©2001-2023 Tuner Information Center. Permission is hereby granted to quote our text so long as proper credit is given. eBay listings that quote us incorrectly or without credit may be terminated without notice.This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated.

Proton was made by a company that also manufactured for NAD during one period, though that relationship did not last. Proton therefore produced a lot of products that are very similar to NAD products, and the 440 tuner seems to be closely associated with the NAD 4155, which which it shares the effective Schotz noise reduction system. But that similarity is skin-deep - a comparison of the circuit boards shows that the two tuners are not at all similar. The comments related to the 440 on TIC seem on point to me, so I see no need to add to them, except to state that those who wish to do mods will have an easy time of it, I suspect. Both the top and bottom of the main PCB are easily accessible just by removing covers.
Proton 440 (1984, $300, photo, Audio review) search eBay
The extremely common 440 is a very sensitive and extremely quiet black digital tuner. The 440 has Schotz noise reduction circuitry and sounds great, according to one of our audiophile contributors, but has poor adjacent channel selectivity in stock form. Consequently, it is a prime candidate for a filter mod, and becomes an excellent tuner for DXing when two of its 3 filters are replaced with narrower ones. See the NAD 4155 writeup and our contributor Dave P.'s comments here for more on the Schotz circuit.
Our contributor Dave (not Dave P.) reports that the 440 "has WIDE filters, which accounts for its clear, clean sound. The bass is deep and loud in the bottom octave, but I haven't figured out why yet. I wound up using 180 kHz filters in it, because anything else just destroyed its sound - I think it came with 280s. It's sensitive but not greatly selective." Our contributor Ray D. says, "The Proton 440 I have is the quietest tuner I have found on distant stations such as Vermont Public Radio. The downside is that the soundstage is so narrow on VPR as to be barely better than mono." Our contributor John V. cautions that Proton tuners were apparently not built to stand up to rough handling in shipping

Mitsubishi DA-F20 (1978, $430, photo, specs/controls, schematic, alignment guide) search eBay
The DA-F20 is an unusual-looking FM-only tuner whose front panel resembles an automobile dashboard. It has a 5-gang traditional tuning capacitor front end, and crystal referenced tuning with digital LED readout. It also has a discrete output stage and decent ergonomics. The DA-F20 has two wholly independent IF paths, each with its own detector, with linear phase LC filters in the wide path and standard 3-pin ceramic filters in the narrow path. Wide/narrow switching is done by a front panel switch that selects which detector output feeds the stereo MPX circuit. Note that the DA-F20 has no blend or MPX filter.

Our panelist Bob was able to easily mod the narrow filter path and install better filters in place of the original Toko filters, which were out of spec. After he replaced the narrow filters, it was necessary to retune the narrow detector. This, along with tweaking the RF front end, brought the tuner to fantastic working condition. Bob reports: "The DA-F20 is one of my top tuners. I like the tight bottom end and clean reproduction of brass and strings, and it's one of my most sensitive and quiet units in stereo mode. One of the things I like best about the DA-F20 is the ease of tuning, especially for an analog front end, digital LED readout unit. There is no complicated mechanism, simply 3 LEDs that let you glide through a station, and a lock indicator to let you know when it is dead-on. With numeric counter-type readout, wide-narrow filters, and separate mono-stereo and muting switches, this is a tuner that gets it right for usability." But Bob cautions, "The DA-F20 needs honing to make sure it's not trying to play your station while tuned in the weeds (i.e., 50 kHz off the channel center). Sometimes this means narrow filter replacement with matched filters to the existing wide LC filters. If your alignment guy cannot/does not do this, it has not been fully done. And not many can. It's expensive to keep thousands of sorted filters in stock. It's expensive to buy the equipment to sort them, and time-consuming to do it. After seeing four of these pass my test bench, all four got new filters - they really needed it." Bob shared a case study of repairs to a DA-F20 in our FMtuners group.

Our contributor Hank calls his DA-F20 "one of the most sensitive tuners I have. It can be bought and modded so inexpensively and made so good, it is virtually self-recommending. When the internal balun is removed, matched filters installed (or, even better, a Bill Ammons Filter-Adder board or two), improved capacitors in the audio circuits added, and (it goes with saying) a good alignment, this tuner becomes a great tuner." Our contributor Thrassyvoulos says, "My DA-F20 sounds and receives absolutely terrific and is very quiet, too. I would put it in my top 6 overall (along with the TU-9900, TU-919, Toshiba ST-910, Pioneer TX-9100 and Denon TU-850, and maybe Yamaha TX-2000), and about the same as far as sonics alone are concerned."

Our contributor Thomas adds, "The DA-F20 stock is one of the best I've ever heard. It's really a miracle to me because Mitsubishi wasn't well-known as a tuner builder. The parts are of very good quality compared to its time companions (class of '78). Read the schematic diagram and you can see that there are a lot of widely recommended features like LC filter and ratio detector. The detector (wide) is discrete, as is the audio stage. The PSU is not bad at all. If you want to replace the coupling caps of the audio stage (which I recommend as a first modification), there will be enough space under the PCB." But while you're reading the schematic, heed our panelist Ray's cautionary note: "The schematic incorrectly depicts the output wiring from the PC board to the jacks. It shows the left channel output feeding the right channel jack and vice versa. The unit itself was correctly wired."

Our contributor doug s. says: "I owned a DA-F20, never serviced, never modded. It was a hair better than a Sansui TU-9900 in a similar state. Later, I owned modded refurb'd iterations of both, and now the Sansui was a bit better. I'm talking sonics - both were very good at grabbing signal. The one thing I did not like about the Mitsu was it has no hi-blend circuit for listening in stereo to less-than perfect signals."

Our panelist JohnC has a happy story: "Over the years I've probably poked a hot iron into a dozen-plus F20s and they always improved after some fresh parts, admittedly with some unit-to-unit variation that I fully expected. Then last month someone had a nice F20 with a BIN for $150. It looked OK so I just grabbed it, figured I could flip it pretty easily. It was one of those 'I couldn't hook it up right but it lights up and plays at low level' offerings that I typically shy away from. Well, it showed up and it was actually in pretty good shape. I pulled the covers and the inside looked like it had just been pulled from a new factory box. It tuned like it was freshly aligned, and sounded as good as some of its predecessors after a recap. Still, I couldn't help myself and did a recap very slowly over the next six weeks, one section at a time, using the same old mod recipe with Ray's passive de-emphasis of years gone by, evaluating the sound after each trip to the bench. It is without a doubt the best sounding F20 I've ever heard, and not by a small margin. At this point, I'd put this one up against anything, and I'm sure it would not embarrass by comparison." Read JohnC's mods to the DA-F20 on our DIY Mods page.