Does anyone else like FM?

[Mark1]

I have sent my ADVENT 300, one of my APT/Holman Preamps, one of my NAD 2200's (There are reviews on these on this site) in.
I may be wrong but I do not believe that Amirm has a good way to test an FM product.
And I am happy enough with both my NAD Monitor 4300 TUNER & my SONY XDR-S3HD that I see no need for me to send them out for testing or for me to do the testing (I have a friend that I grew up with & he is still within a half mile of my mother's home) who could but he is busy working in a Jet Propulsion lab and has many grandkids, so I do not bother him unless something totally fails.
So, in this case, it's up to someone other than me.

It doesn't seem like hardly anyone has the equipment or interest in fully testing FM tuners. In the specs for my old Sony it gives the basics for sensitivity, selectivity, distortion, channel separation etc although still kind of vague about the test standards. There's like a dozen measurements I'd like to know, like that informative spec sheet you posted of your NAD tuner, such as capture ratio, AM rejection, self noise filtering etc. I was looking at the spec sheets for some new receivers and they don't even list the sensitivity or anything.

I didn't intend to impose upon you to test the radio. I was mostly just curious what the signal looked like out the phone output. It's beyond my ability to test audio equipment leave alone tuners. That should be the duty of those selling tuners. No one is really selling good new tuners at a reasonable price and even back when they were, seems no one told much about the measured performance then either lol. It seems strange you could buy a car radio with 9 dbf sensitivity for around $100 but a $500-$1000+ home receiver or tuner sensitivity is over 15 dbf.

 

[Doodski]

It doesn't seem like hardly anyone has the equipment or interest in fully testing FM tuners. In the specs for my old Sony it gives the basics for sensitivity, selectivity, distortion, channel separation etc although still kind of vague about the test standards. There's like a dozen measurements I'd like to know, like that informative spec sheet you posted of your NAD tuner, such as capture ratio, AM rejection, self noise filtering etc. I was looking at the spec sheets for some new receivers and they don't even list the sensitivity or anything.

I didn't intend to impose on you to test the radio. It's beyond my ability to test audio equipment leave alone tuners. That should be the duty of those selling tuners. No one is really selling good new tuners at a reasonable price and even back when they were, seems no one told much about the measured performance then either lol.

RF theory is difficult stuff for consumers to understand and all those specs are probably falling on deaf ears anyway. If I where you I would buy up old used digital and analogue tuners that are being sold at low prices and find something that makes you happy.

 

[Mark1]

RF theory is difficult stuff for consumers to understand and all those specs are probably falling on deaf ears anyway. If I where you I would buy up old used digital and analogue tuners that are being sold at low prices and find something that makes you happy.

Agree. Although if all the specs were listed many consumers would be able to compare numbers and understand good and not good numbers. I'm not sure where to start with a good tuner since there's not many specs . But really, hardly anyone cares about tuners anymore. I would be interested in a vintage digital tuner, maybe receiver if I could determine a few good models with great tuners and find a trustworthy seller.

 

[Doodski]

Agree. Although if all the specs were listed many consumers would be able to compare numbers and understand good and not good numbers. I'm not sure where to start with a good tuner since there's not many specs . But really, hardly anyone cares about tuners anymore. I would be interested in a vintage digital tuner, maybe receiver if I could determine a few good models with great tuners and find a trustworthy seller.

In my experience tuners are hit and miss. I once had a old teak wrapped analogue radio that had maybe 10 bands and it picked up many radio stations from across the USA and Canada and it was very amazing. Old portable radio. Then before I became a electronic technician I sold gear for a major mid fi to hi-fi retailer and had the opportunity to assemble walls of components of up to 20, 40, 50 and more of the same types of gear and then we could compare them and see what was what for sound quality, general use, features and in the case of tuners radio reception. There was a difference in the operation of the tuners and I found this one Luxman that picked up many more OTA stations and sounded better doing that but then there where as many horror stories out there about them as good ones too so there is no sense in running out and buying the first Luxman you find. The most impressive and general purpose AM/FM tuners that I have used where analogue. They reject very little, can sound amazing and can tune in stuff that digital refuses.

 

[DanielT]

I listen to FM in my car sometimes out of laziness or if wireless streaming is being finicky. That said I have the opposite impression of the sound. Streaming sounds noticeably better to my ears due to the lack of noise, even at the Spotify’s free tier bit rate(whatever that is?).

I’m of the opinion that differences between different formats are so small that I basically ignore them. I’m near certain I can’t tell different hirez formats apart, and I think I’d often struggle to differentiate between basic Spotify tier and Qobuz highest resolution. I’d say FM radio and YouTube videos are the two exceptions, where I can always identify a slight perceived degradation of sound quality.

I can't remember, even in my teenage years that anyone talked about sound quality on FM radio. Other than getting in a noise-free stereo reception. An example, I didn't know that the FM signal is cut off at 15 kHz. I found that out a few years ago. It would not have played any practical role then because vinyl and FM radio were the only things that existed at the time, I had not stopped listening to FM radio with that realization.

Maybe a bit OT but I think this is interesting:
You should blind test some children and young people (who hear above 15 kHz) to see if they can distinguish music where it cuts off at 15 kHz and not.Two different samples of the same music, A up to 15 kHz vs B up to 20 kHz.There isn't much information above 15 kHz, but perhaps there are audible differences for the young (if tested with top notch headphones/speakers)?
Perhaps it has already been tested?

I’m near certain I can’t tell different hirez formats apart,...
Different streaming services, their formats, to be lossless or not is a dear topic that there are quite a few threads on those themes here at ASR.
The confusion about what you can and can't hear I think a lot I can be attributed to individual differences, as seen in these threads:

How Much Distortion Can you Hear?

An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.

audiosciencereview.com

Klippel distortion tests (two-tone 70hz 800hz tests). Where do you fit, as compared to +8680 participants?

My recent thread showed that we have members with a range of hearing sensitivity. Many can easily hear a difference, but some could not. I am now curious about ASR members hearing sensitivity as compared to larger pool of participants (over 8680 participants for this particular test). I note...

audiosciencereview.com

Fairly close to the normal distribution curve. Try it yourself and see where you end up. From the first post in the thread above:


Regarding lossless. I remember now that I created this thread. Three years have passed and Spotify still hasn't implemented it:

Will you stop using Spotify now? Vote

It seems that Spotify will not offer lossless, as they said they would in 2021. We do not know when and if Spotify will come with lossless.This is Spotify's only public ,as far as I know, information about lossless...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[EJ3]

It doesn't seem like hardly anyone has the equipment or interest in fully testing FM tuners. In the specs for my old Sony it gives the basics for sensitivity, selectivity, distortion, channel separation etc although still kind of vague about the test standards. There's like a dozen measurements I'd like to know, like that informative spec sheet you posted of your NAD tuner, such as capture ratio, AM rejection, self noise filtering etc. I was looking at the spec sheets for some new receivers and they don't even list the sensitivity or anything.

I didn't intend to impose upon you to test the radio. I was mostly just curious what the signal looked like out the phone output. It's beyond my ability to test audio equipment leave alone tuners. That should be the duty of those selling tuners. No one is really selling good new tuners at a reasonable price and even back when they were, seems no one told much about the measured performance then either lol. It seems strange you could buy a car radio with 9 dbf sensitivity for around $100 but a $500-$1000+ home receiver or tuner sensitivity is over 15 dbf.

I'd be willing to send it somewhere that could test it in some meaning full way (that didn't charge an exorbitant fee that I could not afford)
But there does not seem to be anyone doing it.
The best that I have found (and who I used to decide on my NAD 4300 as what I wanted), is these folks (separate tuners [but also RECEIVERS] {I like separates because if a part goes down, I just plug another one into the system & I don't lose the whole system while it's out for repair or replacement}) These folks do real world testing (Check out their shootouts & ricochets sections), they tell you about upgrades for both reception AND audio quality and who does certain types of repairs and/or modifications & a whole bunch of other stuff (Mark1; please note that there is a section for RECEIVERS [Paul's Receiver Rack] & Antenna's {Paul's Antenna Attic}) :

Search eBay tuners Become a TIC Supporter: Home Recent Updates Introduction Specs Gangs & Filters Alignments Audiophile Mods IF Section Mods Antennas Repairs Links About eBay Contact Us AM Tuners Paul's Antenna Attic Jim & Bob's DIY Mods Bob's Filter Corner Lamp Info Center Library Don's List Lab Modified Tuner Report Paul's Receiver Rack Ricochets Shootouts Shootouts 2.0 Specs Database Our Staff Supporters Tube Tuners Tuner Reviews A-C Tuner Reviews D-G Tuner Reviews H-L Tuner Reviews M-N Tuner Reviews O-R Tuner Reviews S-Z On-Deck Circle This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated.

 

[Mark1]

I'd be willing to send it somewhere that could test it in some meaning full way (that didn't charge an exorbitant fee that I could not afford)
But there does not seem to be anyone doing it.
The best that I have found (and who I used to decide on my NAD 4300 as what I wanted), is these folks (separate tuners [but also RECEIVERS] {I like separates because if a part goes down, I just plug another one into the system & I don't lose the whole system while it's out for repair or replacement}) These folks do real world testing (Check out their shootouts & ricochets sections), they tell you about upgrades for both reception AND audio quality and who does certain types of repairs and/or modifications & a whole bunch of other stuff (Mark1; please note that there is a section for RECEIVERS [Paul's Receiver Rack] & Antenna's {Paul's Antenna Attic}) :

Search eBay tuners Become a TIC Supporter: Home Recent Updates Introduction Specs Gangs & Filters Alignments Audiophile Mods IF Section Mods Antennas Repairs Links About eBay Contact Us AM Tuners Paul's Antenna Attic Jim & Bob's DIY Mods Bob's Filter Corner Lamp Info Center Library Don's List Lab Modified Tuner Report Paul's Receiver Rack Ricochets Shootouts Shootouts 2.0 Specs Database Our Staff Supporters Tube Tuners Tuner Reviews A-C Tuner Reviews D-G Tuner Reviews H-L Tuner Reviews M-N Tuner Reviews O-R Tuner Reviews S-Z On-Deck Circle This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated.

Being able to fix/replace just a separate component is an advantage over a receiver. Plus you have to figure most component tuners would be more often, not always, top of the line than receiver tuners.

I don't blame you at all for not wanting to go through the bother and expensive of having a tuner tested especially that is working/sounding good and it's doubtful anyone can really fully test tuners anyway.

The fmtunerinfo site you've linked has lots of info. I checked it out some before and should spend more time looking around there. My Sony using the rabbit ears is working okay, but I bet there are better tuners out there that could clean up the interference better.

 

[Mark1]

In my experience tuners are hit and miss. I once had a old teak wrapped analogue radio that had maybe 10 bands and it picked up many radio stations from across the USA and Canada and it was very amazing. Old portable radio. Then before I became a electronic technician I sold gear for a major mid fi to hi-fi retailer and had the opportunity to assemble walls of components of up to 20, 40, 50 and more of the same types of gear and then we could compare them and see what was what for sound quality, general use, features and in the case of tuners radio reception. There was a difference in the operation of the tuners and I found this one Luxman that picked up many more OTA stations and sounded better doing that but then there where as many horror stories out there about them as good ones too so there is no sense in running out and buying the first Luxman you find. The most impressive and general purpose AM/FM tuners that I have used where analogue. They reject very little, can sound amazing and can tune in stuff that digital refuses.

Yeah I believe that is very true tuners are hit or miss. And the real test is extending listening at your specific location at home. I imagine it's kind of like speakers, you probably won't really know what the tuners performance is until you have it playing at your location. I think there probably were more analog tuners that were better, but I like to be able to quickly toggle through stations with preset buttons.

 

[Doodski]

Yeah I believe that is very true tuners are hit or miss. And the real test is extending listening at your specific location at home. I imagine it's kind of like speakers, you probably won't really know what the tuners performance is until you have it playing at your location. I think there probably were more analog tuners that were better, but I like to be able to quickly toggle through stations with preset buttons.

Not me I love a nice heavy weighted tuner dial that can be spun from end to end in fractions of a second.

 

[Mark1]

Not me I love a nice heavy weighted tuner dial that can be spun from end to end in fractions of a second.

I can understand that. I like substantive mechanical devices too. I used to have an analog receiver for many years, and seem to remember being good at quickly dialing in one favorite station to the next. It' s been so long it's a faint memory now.

 

[Mark1]

I connected my laptop headphone out to my receiver CD input. In some ways it sounded better and other ways not. I used SiriusXM app then Spotify both set to the highest bitrate, I think 160kbps for free Spotify and SXM unknown but supposedly higher than the satellite broadcast.

The stream had lower noise and a little better imaging than usually the FM stations. But the SXM vocals and treble seemed more harsh and less natural than FM, just like I notice on lower fidelity audio systems, car, cell phone, laptop, powered speakers etc, than my hifi system.. Spotify sounded less harsh and unnatural than SXM but still not sure as good as FM in that respect. Probably premium Spotify would meet or exceed FM not sure. Also I lost volume. Even with the app player volume and laptop volume maxed, I had to crank the receiver volume about half way or higher.

I don't mind using the SXM app, but I don't like using the Spotify app or using my laptop. Wireless through a wifi streamer controlling with my cell phone would be better. But I just prefer using my receiver tuner. The streaming sound quality isn't better and SXM isn't even a free app. I wished I had bought a really good receiver or maybe even component tuner back when good new ones were available before I got the Sony. I wonder what happened to my Yamaha receiver, I think I sort of gave it away .

 

[Mark1]

With more listening and checking settings, I'm not so sure whether SXM and Spotify sound more harsh or less natural than FM or whether Spotify sounds better than SXM. It's hard to compare because the sources' tracks and volumes differ. 160kbps seems to be cutting it close between FM and digital sound quality.

Anyway, I was wondering if turning up PC volume near 100 max would increase distortion or go into clipping? The sound seems to maybe be less harsh and more natural with PC volume below about 80 and compensating with more receiver volume.

 

[Doodski]

wondering if turning up PC volume near 100 max would increase distortion or go into clipping?

Clipping will occur only if the source AC voltage is high enough to cause clipping. As it is now the source AC voltage is low and that's why the volume control needs to be turned around so high. As long as you don't suddenly introduce a high voltage AC signal/source into that high volume setup all will be OK.

The sound seems to maybe be less harsh and more natural with PC volume below about 80 and compensating with more receiver volume.

I suppose they vary but I can turn mine to max and go deaf but it does not sound distorted. Just incredibly loud. Results vary though.

 

[Mark1]

Clipping will occur only if the source AC voltage is high enough to cause clipping. As it is now the source AC voltage is low and that's why the volume control needs to be turned around so high. As long as you don't suddenly introduce a high voltage AC signal/source into that high volume setup all will be OK.

I suppose they vary but I can turn mine to max and go deaf but it does not sound distorted. Just incredibly loud. Results vary though.

Just to make sure, I mean will PC headphone amp distortion increase or clip if I turn the PC volume toward max, I don't mean the receiver amp being overdriven. So do you mean if you turn PC volume toward max the headphone out distortion won't increase or clip (at least not into the 50k ohm input impedance of the Sony receiver?). I'm not really sure if this is happening but seemed maybe sound is cleaner at lower PC volume and higher receiver volume

 

[Doodski]

will PC headphone amp distortion increase or clip if I turn the PC volume toward max, I don't mean the receiver amp. So do you mean if you turn PC volume toward max the headphone out distortion won't increase or clip (at least not into the 50k ohm input impedance of the Sony receiver?).

Probably not. I can't really say for sure. Use your senses/ears. I max out my volume control many times through the day with my DAC and headphone amp but that's different.

 

[Mark1]

Probably not. I can't really say for sure. Use your senses/ears. I max out my volume control many times through the day with my DAC and headphone amp but that's different.

I think audio sounds cleaner with the PC volume less than max and maybe why I initially thought the streaming was harsher and more unnatural than FM. I'd have to do more listening to say for sure.

This got me thinking maybe a built-in networking receiver would be better in a way than adding a streamer. Maybe the input and output impedances, voltage and volume would be matched up better for low distortion and high signal to noise., and there'd be more consistent volume between tuner and streaming sources.

 

[Doodski]

a built-in networking receiver

What is that?

 

[Mark1]

What is that?

Receivers that have built in wifi, not just bluetooth , and DAC for streaming music.

 

[Doodski]

Receivers that have built in wifi, not just bluetooth , and DAC for streaming music.

O' rightO.... gotcha... Are you using a PC as a source? I can't remember if I asked you that before...

 

[Mark1]

O' rightO.... gotcha... Are you using a PC as a source? I can't remember if I asked you that before...

Yeah was using a laptop. Other than my tv it's the only source I have to stream that has an analog audio out jack that my Sony receiver can use. My cell phone doesn't have an output jack.