• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Do you see Class D being the standard in AVRs to come?

Roland68

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
1,364
Likes
1,128
Location
Cologne, Germany
Don’t forget that these prices are not realistic for a retail AVR. A markup of 3x to 5x must be accounted for before it’s in the store. Even if they buy in bulk, that’s still a significant difference. Your $500 amps are then $1500 to $ 2000…

Even the X8500h uses what looks to be a super cheap single layer PCB with through hole components:
View attachment 223310

Why? Because it works, has been used for many years and is cheap-as-F == more profit!
You may have overlooked that the first suggestion consists of normal components that anyone can buy in stores, not DIY.
With a new AV receiver with pre-amplifier outputs, you get around €/$ 1500 with real 8 x 250 watts at 4 ohms, i.e. real 2000 watts of sinus power. Expandable at will for €/$ 125,- each 2 x 250 watts.
With a Canton Smart Connect 5.1 V2 even less, see my post #37.
There are inexpensive housing manufacturers for Ice Power Modules who offer ready-made housings with cutouts, drilled holes and cable sets. That is just as complex as building a PC together and more Ikea than DIY.
But that should only show possibilities.

But let's be honest, the Class A/B power amplifiers in the AV receivers are now a cheek, the more so the more expensive they are. Components for a few €/$, developments that are over 20 years old and built sparingly. You only need to look at the service manual.
This is then technically advertised as an analogue power amplifier in marketing. And it works for at least 90% of the buyers out there. Of course, this also makes it more difficult to place Class D power amplifiers, especially in the upper classes.
In relation to the output stage, the AV receivers differ in the number of channels, size/performance of the transformer and filter capacity (power supply unit) and the individual output stages, which differ by €/$ 1-5 (from the smallest to the largest receiver).

Class D, e.g. with the meanwhile proven TPA3255, would of course mean a lot of development effort. Sure, there is now plenty of experience with these chips, but in such an environment, in a confined space with several sensitive processors, everything first has to be extensively tested and cleaned up.
But with 2 pieces of TPA3255 you could have an 8 x 150 watt power amplifier at 4 ohms, which also brings this power to all channels. Component price for normal mortals approx. €/$ 60.00.
An open frame industrial power supply with 600 watts is around €/$ 50, one with 1200 watts at around €/$ 70. Further central screening capacities are not required.
For the manufacturer, this solution should be well below €/$ 100.00, with a 600 watt power supply even around 70.00.

With 6 pieces of TPA3255 you could build a 12 x 250 watt power amplifier into 4 ohms, so just to see the number, 3000 watts total output. Should be around €/$ 100 - 150 for the manufacturer.
In addition, there would be an open frame industrial power supply with 2000 watts for less than €/$ 100.00. Or 3000 watts for 150,-.
That shouldn't be more expensive than the previous power amplifiers with transformer, rectifier and filter capacitors.
But the customer would have significantly more power available, the manufacturer would have a power-saving and economical device that also meets all the requirements for it and the components are much more space-saving.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,229
Likes
17,811
Location
Netherlands
You may have overlooked that the first suggestion consists of normal components that anyone can buy in stores, not DIY.
With a new AV receiver with pre-amplifier outputs, you get around €/$ 1500 with real 8 x 250 watts at 4 ohms, i.e. real 2000 watts of sinus power. Expandable at will for €/$ 125,- each 2 x 250 watts.
With a Canton Smart Connect 5.1 V2 even less, see my post #37.
There are inexpensive housing manufacturers for Ice Power Modules who offer ready-made housings with cutouts, drilled holes and cable sets. That is just as complex as building a PC together and more Ikea than DIY.
But that should only show possibilities.
None of this is the point. Yes, you can buy all of this stuff (how that is not DIY is beyond me, but okay)... The point is that the AVR manufacturers are not using this. They stick to their old and tried class AB designs.

I think we're still way off in terms of cost. My guess is that an amplifier channel for an AVR is below $ 10, possibly up to $ 15 for the high-end models. That's it really... Still, you pay $ 3000+ for an X8500h.

I still think cost (both in development as well as parts) is the major factor here.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,229
Likes
17,811
Location
Netherlands
I still think cost (both in development as well as parts) is the major factor here.
The other is obviously laziness. As long as none of the competitors come out with a low cost, high value class D alternative, why would anyone take the plunge?
 

Roland68

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
1,364
Likes
1,128
Location
Cologne, Germany
None of this is the point. Yes, you can buy all of this stuff (how that is not DIY is beyond me, but okay)... The point is that the AVR manufacturers are not using this. They stick to their old and tried class AB designs.

I think we're still way off in terms of cost. My guess is that an amplifier channel for an AVR is below $ 10, possibly up to $ 15 for the high-end models. That's it really... Still, you pay $ 3000+ for an X8500h.

I still think cost (both in development as well as parts) is the major factor here.
No DIY because ready-made devices. 2 x 300 Watt Amplifier AIYIMA A07, tested and recommended here on ASR. Often offered on Aliexpress in the AIYIMA shop for approx 50 including taxes and shipping without a power supply.
A friend has now connected 5 of them to his Denon AV flagship.

Exactly my opinion, the currently installed power amplifiers and power supplies are outrageous at the price.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,229
Likes
17,811
Location
Netherlands
No DIY because ready-made devices. 2 x 300 Watt Amplifier AIYIMA A07, tested and recommended here on ASR. Often offered on Aliexpress in the AIYIMA shop for approx 50 including taxes and shipping without a power supply.
A friend has now connected 5 of them to his Denon AV flagship.
That doesn’t make it a complete integrated AVR, does it?
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,092
Likes
2,353
None of this is the point. Yes, you can buy all of this stuff (how that is not DIY is beyond me, but okay)... The point is that the AVR manufacturers are not using this. They stick to their old and tried class AB designs.

I think we're still way off in terms of cost. My guess is that an amplifier channel for an AVR is below $ 10, possibly up to $ 15 for the high-end models. That's it really... Still, you pay $ 3000+ for an X8500h.

I still think cost (both in development as well as parts) is the major factor here.

Development cost is amortised by using the same chassis for a large number of generations.... for Denon X3100 through to X3700 (with X3800 coming shortly)...

Mostly the same power boards, same power supply, there are incremental minor changes here and there - and software changes to add more functionality.
(and much sharing with Marantz - where the major difference is the HDAM modules and the rest is the same as Denon)

Onkyo does the same with all 3 of its brands sharing common chassis architecture across Onkyo, Pioneer, and Integra... the last 5+ years the chassis have been the same lower midrange chassis, upper midrange chassi and TOTL Flagship chassis - amps and power supplies are the same, minor tweaks to DAC's and DSP's, and functionality changes in software.

Not a hell of a lot of electrical engineering development going on - mostly evolutionary tweaking

Main developments are in software - much of which appears as licence costs... Dirac, Dolby, DTS, etc....
There is some in house integration work (software again) - but once again this is not a huge development effort.
 
OP
D

DrStranger

Active Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
204
Likes
56
No DIY because ready-made devices. 2 x 300 Watt Amplifier AIYIMA A07, tested and recommended here on ASR. Often offered on Aliexpress in the AIYIMA shop for approx 50 including taxes and shipping without a power supply.
A friend has now connected 5 of them to his Denon AV flagship.

Exactly my opinion, the currently installed power amplifiers and power supplies are outrageous at the price.
This gave me an alternative to what I am waiting for… Thank you for posting this.
 

TSB

Active Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Messages
189
Likes
294
Location
NL
Development cost is amortised by using the same chassis for a large number of generations.... for Denon X3100 through to X3700 (with X3800 coming shortly)...

Mostly the same power boards, same power supply, there are incremental minor changes here and there - and software changes to add more functionality.
(and much sharing with Marantz - where the major difference is the HDAM modules and the rest is the same as Denon)

Onkyo does the same with all 3 of its brands sharing common chassis architecture across Onkyo, Pioneer, and Integra... the last 5+ years the chassis have been the same lower midrange chassis, upper midrange chassi and TOTL Flagship chassis - amps and power supplies are the same, minor tweaks to DAC's and DSP's, and functionality changes in software.

Not a hell of a lot of electrical engineering development going on - mostly evolutionary tweaking

Main developments are in software - much of which appears as licence costs... Dirac, Dolby, DTS, etc....
There is some in house integration work (software again) - but once again this is not a huge development effort.
Integrating (for example) Dirac is serious development work, integrating all the common digital formats and sources (BT, Spotify, Tidal, Apple Airplay, Chromecast.. etc etc) is not cheap or easy...
 

Palladium

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
631
Likes
769
With respect to the thread title: Of course, when the distortion of the transducers are so much higher.
 

Roland68

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
1,364
Likes
1,128
Location
Cologne, Germany
That doesn’t make it a complete integrated AVR, does it?
No, I never claimed that and it wasn't my intention at all.
It is simply intended to show that there are cheap external Class D alternatives to the built-in A/B power amplifiers.
When you're ready, you can play around with an AVR with a preamp output on your own terms.
AIYIMA A7 and Icepower are just examples. There are enough ready-made external Class D mono and stereo power amplifiers in all price and performance classes on the market.
Perhaps it is not uninteresting to position the individual power amplifiers directly next to the loudspeakers.
But that's just a possibility/suggestion. Nobody has to like it or do it.
There are plenty of other alternatives...

In the past few months, 3 friends have come to see me with their Top End AV Receivers and were confident they could easily beat my combination.
One got the AIYIMA A7, the others will build mono blocks with 400 watt Ice Power modules that are right next to the speakers.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,229
Likes
17,811
Location
Netherlands
Yeah, we’ve been able to do that for at least 15 years now… how does that help with the topic title?
 

Roland68

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
1,364
Likes
1,128
Location
Cologne, Germany
Yeah, we’ve been able to do that for at least 15 years now… how does that help with the topic title?
In fact, I did it back in 1998 with a Yamaha RX-V 595a and an AVM A1 stereo amp for the front channels, but actually for different reasons.

My contributions were only intended to show that we are not at the mercy of the big manufacturers and that we can take matters into our own hands with Class D amplifiers.
Such a trend could also lead to rethinking among manufacturers. Before the advent of inexpensive, high-performance Class D amplifiers, this was a very expensive and unprofitable undertaking.

It should be clear that I believe Class D will be the future standard for AVRs.
The main points that stand against it are marketing (driving force analog power amplifier and class A/B), development effort and possibly poor scaling options for all price ranges. If it is known which chips or modules are installed, the customer can understand the possible performance, especially in connection with the installed SMPS. This is very opaque with normal transistor output stages.

But since this point of view probably does not fit the topic of the thread, I will withdraw. The moderator is welcome to delete my posts.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,229
Likes
17,811
Location
Netherlands
It should be clear that I believe Class D will be the future standard for AVRs.
Sure, but will it take another 5, 10 or 15 years?
If it is known which chips or modules are installed, the customer can understand the possible performance, especially in connection with the installed SMPS. This is very opaque with normal transistor output stages.
As with DAC’s, everything depends on the implementation. Not every TPA amp performs well, just like not every ESS powered DAC is a good performer. There are also manufacturers f*cking up Hypex implementations. I don’t think It will give more transparency. Just give us actual performance graphs, those are transparent if done well. Besides, 90% of customers won’t have an idea either way ;)
But since this point of view probably does not fit the topic of the thread, I will withdraw. The moderator is welcome to delete my posts.
Please don’t! They still serve a purpose showing how close in budget class D has come (it will even leave budget for a fire extinguisher @restorer-john ;) ). Especially for the high-end models there are little excuses anymore, especially with so many OEM modules with superb performance.
 

Blender

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2022
Messages
16
Likes
7
Sure, but will it take another 5, 10 or 15 years?

As with DAC’s, everything depends on the implementation. Not every TPA amp performs well, just like not every ESS powered DAC is a good performer. There are also manufacturers f*cking up Hypex implementations. I don’t think It will give more transparency. Just give us actual performance graphs, those are transparent if done well. Besides, 90% of customers won’t have an idea either way ;)

Please don’t! They still serve a purpose showing how close in budget class D has come (it will even leave budget for a fire extinguisher @restorer-john ;) ). Especially for the high-end models there are little excuses anymore, especially with so many OEM modules with superb performance.
 

Godataloss

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
468
Likes
510
Location
Northern Ohio
Be careful with your desires
You could take a Canton Smart Connect 5.1 V2, or a used Yamaha RX-V 779 / 781 or RX-A 850 / 860 / 870 / 880, all with preamp outputs and 4K HDMI.
But of course there is something like that from the other manufacturers.

I myself use the RX-V 779 as a processor (ok, it can push 2 effect loudspeakers) and operate it with 2 x Aiyima A07 and 2 x Ice Power. Real 1550 watts without a subwoofer for less than 800,-, including the used Yamaha RX-V 779.
Even at room volume, the difference to the internal amplifier is huge.
I was unaware of the Canton device. Seems reasonably priced even though it has many extra features I wouldn't be interested in (wireless). I wonder how it does with the legacy audio formats and the newer video formats (hdr and gaming modes)?
 

Head_Unit

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Messages
1,341
Likes
688
I still think cost (both in development as well as parts) is the major factor here.
Not a hell of a lot of electrical engineering development going on - mostly evolutionary tweaking
we are not at the mercy of the big manufacturers
But we ARE, if you are talking about multichannel/movies. Who else is making decoders? Small firms apparently do not have the budget/staff/investment to take on all the licensing and certification and engineering. Meanwhile AVRs are a mature and I'd guess declining market-hence design recycling with moderate iterative upgrades, not massive investment quite possibly needing new and different engineers and a LOT of testing to make successful designs.

On the one hand we have Class D as a radiative hell, confined next to a bunch of other digital circuitry
+ On the other, folks complaining AVRs have only 100 dB SINAD instead of 120 of top stereo units.
= CONTRADICTION ;)

I'd love to see a test of a Pioneer Class D! (Is there one?)
 

Vacceo

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 9, 2022
Messages
2,636
Likes
2,754
But we ARE, if you are talking about multichannel/movies. Who else is making decoders? Small firms apparently do not have the budget/staff/investment to take on all the licensing and certification and engineering. Meanwhile AVRs are a mature and I'd guess declining market-hence design recycling with moderate iterative upgrades, not massive investment quite possibly needing new and different engineers and a LOT of testing to make successful designs.

On the one hand we have Class D as a radiative hell, confined next to a bunch of other digital circuitry
+ On the other, folks complaining AVRs have only 100 dB SINAD instead of 120 of top stereo units.
= CONTRADICTION ;)

I'd love to see a test of a Pioneer Class D! (Is there one?)
And still, many AVR's manage to be cleaner than AVP's...
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,941
Location
Brussels, Belgium
I was unaware of the Canton device. Seems reasonably priced even though it has many extra features I wouldn't be interested in (wireless). I wonder how it does with the legacy audio formats and the newer video formats (hdr and gaming modes)?

650 euros for something that doesn't even have room correction is quite intense for something that doesn't even have room correction, but i understand the enthusiasm considering the lack of similarly priced alternatives.

a Denon AVR is still the best deal for anything below 2000 euros imo.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,092
Likes
2,353
I'd love to see a test of a Pioneer Class D! (Is there one?)
LX704 / 904, or Onkyo RZ3400, or the equivalent Integra....

The flagship series from the brands of Onkyo all have Class D, and have for about the last 5 years - since Onkyo took over Pioneer. Pioneer had Class D in their top Elite models for at least 5 more years before that
 
Top Bottom