Do you see Class D being the standard in AVRs to come?

[DrStranger]

I have touched on the difference between the different power classes of ARs and AVRs, understood that Class D seems to be the way to go, for every one, power cost, heat and ultimatley the enviroment. This also seems to be one of my key things in my upcoming AVR purchase since the place it will be in, is not super ventilated. My question to my fellow members here in ASR: Do you think Class D will be more implemented in low and mid tier of AVRs and upper AVRs ? Looking at the IT-sector the rules of how a power supply and its efficency as well as usage has become more strict (Lot9), in Europe. I read some of the pinned post in this section of the forum (....FTC), but was not sure if its the exact same as I am asking for.

Can we see this coming, what do you think?

 

[fpitas]

i think it will become ubiquitous. You'll be hard pressed to find anything else. Large companies (like TI) are devoting huge engineering resources on control ICs, gambling that future sales will be astronomical.

 

[ryanosaur]

I think it will. Slowly, Class D will prove to be too valuable for its size, lightness, cooler operating temps, and quality. Nothing against AB and it's variants. Just makes sense in the long run.

 

[antcollinet]

Not just AR's / AVR's - in the future all** amplification will be class D.

** with the exception of ridiculously overpriced "audiophile" niche applications in the same way as valve based amps are still sold. They are better because......never mind the quality, feel the cost.

 

[Matias]

Smaller and lighter so they can stuff dozens of channels per unit. They generate less heat in cabinets, and can be advertised as being green at the same time, double win. There is no way back to AB for 99% of this market.

Having said that, there are better and worst class D amps. Hopefully AVR companies decide to spend a few dollars more and use the better chips. I know Amir will be there verifying if they do not.

 

[AdamG]

Lots of valid reasons to do so start to stack up saying a resounding yes. Price per watt, efficiency gains, reduction in power supply needs, lowered heat generation including reduced heat stress cycles, reduced weight and footprint size reductions, significant reduction in power demand at wall socket. Ultimately making multichannel AVRs smaller, lighter and cheaper to build, store and ship. I can’t really think of any negatives or downsides to adoption. Like many have already said above.

 

[Blender]

Isn’t it problematic that it is so clear to us that the answer is “yes,” but Denon and others haven’t switched to class D wholesale already? Maybe their R&D budgets are so close to zero that they can’t switch.

 

[DVDdoug]

I would have assumed they are class-D already, just given the price for 5-channels of 100W or so...

 

[dlaloum]

There are downsides - they can generate noise / interference, it requires more design / engineering rigour to keep things clean.

Also component lifetime and repairability becomes a major ???

In some ways, the real major gains would be switching power supplies, rather than the Class D amps... most AVR's desperately need more current from the PSU... their amps are OK.

But then AVR's have reached the level of complexity (much like PC's) where board level component repairs simply are no longer done.... so that means once something goes wrong, your replace that circuit board with all its components... if that circuit board is no longer available (cos the AVR is 10 years old...) - then the AVR becomes a boat anchor.

An alternative would be an AVR "Open Platform" - with boards interchangeable between brands and models - this is what happened in the PC world with the release of the Apple II and later the IBM PC.... and the families of open standards that followed.

The open architectures were driven by competition from many small manufacturers wanting into the market dominated by a couple of biggies... supported by the OS and Software companies.

I don't see any equivalent in the AVR space. Which means, all AVR's more than 10 years old, are just waiting to become a boat anchor at some point.

Things MAY change if we see some real traction in the PC Software AVP world.... but I am not holding my breath.

 

[JSmith]

Most AVR's are A/B still... although Pioneer has been using class D amps in their Elite line for a while as an example.


JSmith

 

[JeffS7444]

I have touched on the difference between the different power classes of ARs and AVRs, understood that Class D seems to be the way to go, for every one, power cost, heat and ultimatley the enviroment. This also seems to be one of my key things in my upcoming AVR purchase since the place it will be in, is not super ventilated. My question to my fellow members here in ASR: Do you think Class D will be more implemented in low and mid tier of AVRs and upper AVRs ? Looking at the IT-sector the rules of how a power supply and its efficency as well as usage has become more strict (Lot9), in Europe. I read some of the pinned post in this section of the forum (....FTC), but was not sure if its the exact same as I am asking for.

Can we see this coming, what do you think?

Panasonic did this a number of years ago with their SA-XR25, and it had a cult following. No idea why Class D + SMPS did not become the standard but I wonder if electromagnetic interference (EMI) was a challenge.

 

[DrStranger]

Most AVR's are A/B still... although Pioneer has been using class D amps in their Elite line for a while as an example.


JSmith

Do you know if the new VSX-LX505, 305, 105, is also Class D? I could not see that anywhere in the product sheet.

 

[DrStranger]

Panasonic did this a number of years ago with their SA-XR25, and it had a cult following. No idea why Class D + SMPS did not become the standard but I wonder if electromagnetic interference (EMI) was a challenge.

Interesting, can you please elaborate?

 

[Vacceo]

NAD uses class D (Hypex I think) amps in their AVR's. Even McIntosh has started implementing them on some multichannel amps.

 

[voodooless]

This question pops up every few years, and has been doing so for at least a decade… still nothing much changed.

Most AVR amps are build super cheap: single layer PCB of the lowest quality, with a bit of luck it’s dual. Often even wire bridges are used. Component count is minimal and most of it is still though-hole. It’s truly a miracle how much performance they get out of that!

I still think it will be hard to beat these class AB amps cost wise with well working class D tech in this product segment.

 

[fpitas]

It will take time. The tendency at any established company is to cut and paste the circuitry you can re-use. The transition to Class D will have them re-thinking major portions of the product.

 

[dlaloum]

Do you know if the new VSX-LX505, 305, 105, is also Class D? I could not see that anywhere in the product sheet.

No the lower end Chassis 505 and Down are Class AB - the TOTL chassis currently still 704 and 904 are Class D.

They were supposed to release the updated TOTL models (705 / 905) early this year, but it seems like it won't happen till late this year - and by the time the AVR's hit retail it will be 2023

 

[dlaloum]

This question pops up every few years, and has been doing so for at least a decade… still nothing much changed.

Most AVR amps are build super cheap: single layer PCB of the lowest quality, with a bit of luck it’s dual. Often even wire bridges are used. Component count is minimal and most of it is still though-hole. It’s truly a miracle how much performance they get out of that!

I still think it will be hard to beat these class AB amps cost wise with well working class D tech in this product segment.

YEs - Class D only in the flagship models of a few brands... not in the mass market and lower end models.

 

[dlaloum]

It will take time. The tendency at any established company is to cut and paste the circuitry you can re-use. The transition to Class D will have them re-thinking major portions of the product.

Yes.. Pioneer went Class D by buying in ICE modules from B&O, NAD did it with Hypex modules.

Pioneer later developed their own Class D circuits, then got taken over by Onkyo - who then rereleased the Pioneer Class D amps in their TOTL chassis...

And year after year the same Class D circuits get recycled across the flagships of Pioneer, Onkyo and Integra... not that there is anything wrong with that!

Although, interestingly, the top of the midrange Class AB and the Flagship Class D amps have approximately the same level of power... which makes one wonder what the advantages are (must look into that...)

 

[fpitas]

Yes.. Pioneer went Class D by buying in ICE modules from B&O, NAD did it with Hypex modules.

Pioneer later developed their own Class D circuits, then got taken over by Onkyo - who then rereleased the Pioneer Class D amps in their TOTL chassis...

And year after year the same Class D circuits get recycled across the flagships of Pioneer, Onkyo and Integra... not that there is anything wrong with that!

Although, interestingly, the top of the midrange Class AB and the Flagship Class D amps have approximately the same level of power... which makes one wonder what the advantages are (must look into that...)

As a horn guy, I appreciate the lack of crossover distortion with class D. A CD and horn are about 20dB more sensitive than a cone driver, and correspondingly more sensitive to that sort of thing. Of course us hornies are 0.000001% of the market. Other than that, the best AB amps still have substantial bias current and heat. And require a substantial heat sink for continuous high power operation.