Do you need linear power supply for DACs?

[tvrgeek]

My actual set is, if fact, all I was looking for after a decade of research: An integrated amplifier Vintage Sansui AU-X911DG, for a smooth and powerful stereo; an 11.2 Home Theater Receiver with Atmos Pioneer VSX LX 503 and a Oppo BDP 105. All together an investment of US$ 3,000.00. Plus, an 2011 Mac Mini and a Topping E50, for evaluating MQA and Audirvana. 3 pairs of Wireworld Equinox 8 Interconnect RCA cables are my choice for connect them to the Sansui. Very happy and inside of my actual investing possibilities. NAD should be great to let me only with the NAD/Oppo. If I sell here in Brazil the Sansui, the Pioneer, the Wireworld Equinox 8 and the dueto Topping E50/Mac Mini I will get money enough to buy the NAD and simplify, update and even increasing it. That is what I hope.

Do know , the NAD is like newer better class D in it being very clean and likely a big improvement over the Pioneer, but quite different from the Sansui. You may want to decide which you prefer for music. I do not know the speakers I heard it on so I can only make gross comments. The salesman was all about big, loud special effects from some war movie. I have not heard of stability issues with the NAD as I have with the Anthems, which would otherwise be my first choice. So keeping my old MXR310 for only the audio in my HT. I do my music in the living room with a dedicated stereo.

I hope those snake oil cables are not damaging the sound too much.

 

[tvrgeek]

Not sure these results are can reveal which is better, SMPS or linear. You are comparing a high grade linear PS with a cheap Chinees SMPS supplied with the DAC itself, if I understand correctly. You need to compare the linear PS with a high grade precision SMPS. My colleagues at our department have built SMPS with 0.00027% output ripple at both no load and full load (24V, 250W). Of course, such SMPS would cost much more, but it proves that SMPS can easily outperform any linear PS. There are ways to further regulate high frequency noise from SMPS.

Exactly, It is the implementation, not the technology. There are some very good post-filters in the DIY market for switchers. Of course, for a DAC it is easy as the load is pretty constant. I have even seen LDO chips cascaded after a SMPS.

So, bottom line remains: it depends. You need what works well enough. If the noise is below the DAC/AMP floor, it is clean enough. If it is stiff enough not to be modulated above the noise floor, it is regulated well enough. We call this "engineering"

If the only porter I ever had was a Green Man, I would say I don't like dark beer. But I know about Anchor and Highland. The difference is the implementation. I even stoop to a Guinness when I have no choice.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Do know , the NAD is like newer better class D in it being very clean and likely a big improvement over the Pioneer, but quite different from the Sansui. You may want to decide which you prefer for music. I do not know the speakers I heard it on so I can only make gross comments. The salesman was all about big, loud special effects from some war movie. I have not heard of stability issues with the NAD as I have with the Anthems, which would otherwise be my first choice. So keeping my old MXR310 for only the audio in my HT. I do my music in the living room with a dedicated stereo.

I hope those snake oil cables are not damaging the sound too much.

Having a Sansui means more to me than its smooth and powerful sound. You are prudent on keeping a dedicated amplifier for music. So do I, after a long run. Is pratically impossible for me to compare Oppo vs Nad and, yes, I can miss the Sansui. About cables, I have a US$ 35.00 Canare WBC interconnect. RCA and this Wireworld sounded better to my ears. US$ 140.00 each will not break me. Ok, I miss also my Blue Jeans RCA. Less than 40 bucks and very good. Maybe I will come clback to then. Anyway, I never lose money buying and selling these brands.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Having a Sansui means more to me than its smooth and powerful sound. You are prudent on keeping a dedicated amplifier for music. So do I, after a long run. Is pratically impossible for me to compare Oppo vs Nad and, yes, I can miss the Sansui. About cables, I have a US$ 35.00 Canare WBC interconnect. RCA and this Wireworld sounded better to my ears. US$ 140.00 each will not break me. Ok, I miss also my Blue Jeans RCA. Less than 40 bucks and very good. Maybe I will come clback to then. Anyway, I never lose money buying and selling these brands.

Sansui VS NAD, I meant

 

[piaseczek]

With upsampled PCM, only first point, but not second, because you cannot feed high rate oversampled PCM data to the chip. However, you can feed the chip with high rate oversampled DSD, so you can run proper filters to 22.5792/24.576M rate and then modulator before sending it to the DAC chip. This gives you minimal amount of DSP inside the DAC chip.

And obviously not third either because you don't have a direct mode.

In 9038PRO, you have either 128-tap first stage filter, or 256-tap first stage filter if you disable remaining channels. These are pretty pathetic figures, also note that maximum precision for the filter coefficients is 32-bit integer. Second stage is just 27/28 taps symmetric mandatory.
View attachment 161943

It really prevents you from achieving proper attenuation and steepness for 32-bit reconstruction accuracy. So you can feed the DAC with 32-bit data, but it cannot actually utilize it properly. For some fun, you can reflect that for example against some other hardware devices like Chord's MScaler.

This is what I call severely constrained hardware resources. Indeed, if you look at the supplied default filter set, attenuations vary around 100 - 120 dB, which is equivalent of 16 - 20 bit accuracy. And ripples are in range of 0.01 to 0.002 dB. Only "brickwall" is non-leaky but otherwise poor spec.

Hi Miska,
Do you mean that if I we provide to the ess9038pro externally upsampled data to 44.1kHz x 16/48kHz x 16 we will automatically ommit the first stage of oversampling in the chip?

 

[pseudoid]

....A good switcher takes skills I do not have...

I believed everything you said before and after this part... and don't take offense by me calling just this part total bs!

 

[AdamG]

I believed everything you said before and after this part... and don't take offense by me calling just this part total bs!

By his own request, he is no longer a member here. Just FYI. He won’t be replying.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Saiba, o NAD é como uma classe D mais nova e melhor, sendo muito limpo e provavelmente uma grande melhoria em relação ao Pioneer, mas bem diferente do Sansui. Você pode querer decidir qual você prefere para a música. Não conheço os alto-falantes em que o ouvi, então só posso fazer comentários grosseiros. O vendedor queria grandes efeitos especiais de algum filme de guerra. Não ouvi falar de problemas de estabilidade com o NAD como ouvi com o Anthems, que de outra forma seria minha primeira escolha. Assim mantendo meu antigo MXR310 apenas para o áudio no meu HT. Eu faço minha música na sala de estar com um aparelho de som dedicado.

Espero que esses cabos de óleo de cobra não estejam prejudicando muito o som.

About cables, for some reason, I go with Wireworld. I have a Equinox 8 and Eclipse 7 RCA, moving to Silver Eclipse 8 RCA. I am ok with AV Receiver, Sansui Integrated and Oppo BDP105 more as a pre and DAC via USB. With the colapse of MQA (never heard any diference between MQA 192/24 and Flac 48/24), I moved from Tidal to cheaper QOBUZ and I am plugging my Mac Mini on Oppos USB in. I like

 

[Jimster480]

About cables, for some reason, I go with Wireworld. I have a Equinox 8 and Eclipse 7 RCA, moving to Silver Eclipse 8 RCA. I am ok with AV Receiver, Sansui Integrated and Oppo BDP105 more as a pre and DAC via USB. With the colapse of MQA (never heard any diference between MQA 192/24 and Flac 48/24), I moved from Tidal to cheaper QOBUZ and I am plugging my Mac Mini on Oppos USB in. I like

This just makes no actual sense at all. Why pay $1000 for a cable? It does nothing that would justify $1000. I guess if you just have extra money laying around that you need to waste... but it would be better donated to starving children or proper education...

 

[Angsty]

but it would be better donated to starving children or proper education...

I find it unnecessary to put a values judgement on how people spend money on audio gear versus other things - we all spend way more here than the average Spotify user.

However, it is noted that testing in ASR has failed to find a single case where expensive audio cables perform better than “cheap” ones. The extra investment has zero audio returns, but may be preferred for other reasons. Much like linear audio supplies, the purchase motivations are often based on biases versus performance data.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

This just makes no actual sense at all. Why pay $1000 for a cable? It does nothing that would justify $1000. I guess if you just have extra money laying around that you need to waste... but it would be better donated to starving children or proper education...

Maybe. In fact, I use the money from the sales of other cables to reach the end point one. This end point is 400 bucks. An event in a lifetime. And yes! We need to give a helping hand.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

I find it unnecessary to put a values judgement on how people spend money on audio gear versus other things - we all spend way more here than the average Spotify user.

However, it is noted that testing in ASR has failed to find a single case where expensive audio cables perform better than “cheap” ones. The extra investment has zero audio returns, but may be preferred for other reasons. Much like linear audio supplies, the purchase motivations are often based on biases versus performance data.

I agree. Some buy an expensive bottle of wine. Other pays for a bungee jumping. Human Nature. ASR is 99% measurements. Electrons on a wire. For me, cable makes diference. Psyco? Who knows. But, of course, I consider my pocket and the price range of my set, what keeps me safe of insanity.

 

[Beershaun]

I agree. Some buy an expensive bottle of wine. Other pays for a bungee jumping. Human Nature. ASR is 99% measurements. Electrons on a wire. For me, cable makes diference. Psyco? Who knows. But, of course, I consider my pocket and the price range of my set, what keeps me safe of insanity.

Send them to Amir for testing!

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Send them to Amir for testing!

Amir has giving us a great contribution. It is not necessary to spend his time with subjective affairs. If I'd send him a good bottle of wine and he dislikes it, the cause might not be the (sneak oil?) wine itself, but the changes of temperature and pression during the transport. I liked this video. Cables change sound, but each listener had his own impression. This is it. No crisis. No neura.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Amir has giving us a great contribution. It is not necessary to spend his time with subjective affairs. If I'd send him a good bottle of wine and he dislikes it, the cause might not be the (sneak oil?) wine itself, but the changes of temperature and pression during the transport. I liked this video. Cables change sound, but each listener had his own impression. This is it. No crisis. No neura.

There is a separate thread for discussing cables. But this is a topic with a clear, objective answer: Any perceived difference between two properly-made cables disappears when conducting a properly controlled blind test. If you think you hear a difference, it is in your head - there is also a separate thread about this phenomenon ("psychoacoustics").

To address the wine issue, this is likewise an area filled to the bring with shysters, scam artists, and people who get off on huffing their on farts. Plenty of blind tests showing that oenophiles don't have nearly the distinguished palettes they think they do. Pour such a person a glass of $20 wine and a glass of $400 wine and he'll invariably prefer the $400 wine. Pour two such glasses without disclosing the price or product name and such preferences miraculously disappear.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

There is a separate thread for discussing cables. But this is a topic with a clear, objective answer: Any perceived difference between two properly-made cables disappears when conducting a properly controlled blind test. If you think you hear a difference, it is in your head - there is also a separate thread about this phenomenon ("psychoacoustics").

To address the wine issue, this is likewise an area filled to the bring with shysters, scam artists, and people who get off on huffing their on farts. Plenty of blind tests showing that oenophiles don't have nearly the distinguished palettes they think they do. Pour such a person a glass of $20 wine and a glass of $400 wine and he'll invariably prefer the $400 wine. Pour two such glasses without disclosing the price or product name and such preferences miraculously disappear.

Once the richest man in the world today is from luxury market, your opinion is very good for you. It is not a crime to buy a consumer´s good that you like, independent of the motivation. And I liked a Rosso di Montalcino. And yes, it is possible to distiguish it of a cheap bad wine. For me. But, also, I do not feel comfortable to buy a Brunnelo di Montalcino, due its higher price.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Once the richest man in the world today is from luxury market, your opinion is very good for you. It is not a crime to buy a consumer´s good that you like, independent of the motivation. And I liked a Rosso di Montalcino. And yes, it is possible to distiguish it of a cheap bad wine. For me. But, also, I do not feel comfortable to buy a Brunnelo di Montalcino, due its higher price.

It is not a crime to spend more on a "luxury" that is literally identical in every meaningful way to something that can be had for 1/10th or 1/100th the price. It is merely foolish, while advocating for others to do the same is wrongheaded, and selling people such "luxury" items when you're aware of their own deficiencies is immoral and scummy.

 

[Killingbeans]

And yes, it is possible to distiguish it of a cheap bad wine.

A cheap really good wine can do that too...

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Y

A cheap really good wine can do that too...

Sure! I chase them always.

It is not a crime to spend more on a "luxury" that is literally identical in every meaningful way to something that can be had for 1/10th or 1/100th the price. It is merely foolish, while advocating for others to do the same is wrongheaded, and selling people such "luxury" items when you're aware of their own deficiencies is immoral and scummy.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

It is not a crime to spend more on a "luxury" that is literally identical in every meaningful way to something that can be had for 1/10th or 1/100th the price. It is merely foolish, while advocating for others to do the same is wrongheaded, and selling people such "luxury" items when you're aware of their own deficiencies is immoral and scummy.

You are a person who types with bitter fingers. Always see half an empty glass. A skeptic. I will buy my Wireworld Silver Eclipse, still drink a avarage wine and, once in a while, a upper one. Whisky, also, 12yo of preference. And you, do what you wish. But try to smile a little. It will bring many benefits for you.