Do you need high end speakers for rock and heavy metal?

[DJBonoBobo]

More than orchestral music? nah - not buying it.
Compared to a Mahler, Bruckner or many other end of 19th century music all the rock and pop music I have heard is musically trivial, however much I enjoy a good riff.

Not trying to denigrate the enjoyability of it, just not buying the idea that it is complexity which may make it difficult for a speaker.

Mind you IME some well regarded speakers, very convincing on string quartet or a folk song, fall apart completely trying to reproduce a big symphony. I decided not to buy Spendor BC1s back in the ‘70s for this very reason and they were the darling of many reviewers.

Like this:

But i think, the problems with metal (compared to classical) are more room-related. My guess (please take not every word seriously, i am oversimplyfying): People who listen to metal are statistically more likely to be deviant from the popular mainstream, often less capitalistic than the majority - probably also younger - and therefore less likely to be rich and have big houses/rooms. Unless the parent´s basement is unusually big, haha.
People who listen to classical music on the other hand are probably statistically more likely to have a bigger living space.
And, in a small room without EQ and treatment, even a good speaker´s response (in this case, a Neumann KH310) looks like this (real walls, not tents or wooden boards):

Sounds like sh*t. Even with EQ, it is nearly impossible to get the bass right in a small room in my experience (without subs and years of work). So, maybe all the reports of people listening to metal and complaining about the sound are coming mostly from people with small rooms with bad bass performance. I also think it is safe to say smooth bass is more important for metal than it is for classical.
So i would say, yes, of course everyone needs neutral speakers, but especially for metal you also need big rooms, which are much more expensive than our hardware toys.

 

[Vacceo]

Like this:

But i think, the problems with metal (compared to classical) are more room-related. My guess (please take not every word seriously, i am oversimplyfying): People who listen to metal are statistically more likely to be deviant from the popular mainstream, often less capitalistic than the majority - probably also younger - and therefore less likely to be rich and have big houses/rooms. Unless the parent´s basement is unusually big, haha.
People who listen to classical music on the other hand are probably statistically more likely to have a bigger living space.
And, in a small room without EQ and treatment, even a good speaker´s response (in this case, a Neumann KH310) looks like this (real walls, not tents or wooden boards):
View attachment 377130

Sounds like sh*t. Even with EQ, it is nearly impossible to get the bass right in a small room in my experience (without subs and years of work). So, maybe all the reports of people listening to metal and complaining about the sound are coming mostly from people with small rooms with bad bass performance. I also think it is safe to say smooth bass is more important for metal than it is for classical.
So i would say, yes, of course everyone needs neutral speakers, but especially for metal you also need big rooms, which are much more expensive than our hardware toys.

Fully agree on the smooth bass argument. Industrial like Godflesh, Fear Factory or Ministry, or the popularly acclaimed Doom OST really need an even bass response or it gets boomy very quickly.

 

[Theta]

I have pretty well all Frank Zappa’s musical output going back to the 60s, Yes and Deep Purple too and King Crimson right from their first LP.

It is this I do not consider complex compared to orchestral music. I would consider some Zappa as orchestral music more than rock. I love it.

Not complex in composition, Complex mixing, several mikes on the same channel and mixer board at the same frequency. Often there are 8 microphones on the drums alone. On Stavinsky's Rite Of Spring recording, you don't have several microphones on each instrument, that would be impossible.

 

[kemmler3D]

Late to this thread but I think a lot of posts in this thread have missed something simple and important. I used to demo speakers / headphones as part of my job, so I had a chance to explore this topic on the clock.

Metal / rock has more harmonic content / overtones / inharmonic content than most any other genre. In other words, the spectrum is closest to white or pink noise than any other, except maybe certain industrial electronic subgenres. This tends to be true regardless of how well the song is mixed.

So rock/metal will be most revealing of FR, THD and IMD problems.

This is probably clear to anyone that has spent any significant time looking at spectrograms of music.

As others have said, certain classical recordings are probably most demanding on dynamic range, and some recordings can be really demanding on midrange in the same way, (this track is my quick check for midrange "congestion" - everything is going after 200-2000hz at the same time) but virtually all hard rock / metal recordings are demanding in this way for most of the song. So it's a more reliable route to that type of demand.

When it comes to bass extension, the right choices are probably obvious - hip hop or electronic tend to make it easiest to find the lowest extension of a speaker. (this song includes a sweep right down to 16hz in the introduction - pretty on the nose. )

Either way, if you're evaluating a speaker the most important thing is that you are extremely familiar with the song and how it's supposed to sound.

"High end speakers" as we've noted in the thread is a meaningless price-related term, but I agree that rock / metal tend to be most revealing of FR or midrange distortion problems.

 

[thunderchicken]

I think a couple of factors determine success. One is efficiency, two is overall tonal balance, and a third is xmax. I have small speakers with higher end drivers. They do Mastodon and Opeth exceptionally well at lower volumes, but start sounding messy from medium-loud onward. Guitar solos get lost in the mix and imaging starts to go away like they’re congested. That’s just xmax and physics.

Bigger speakers can be more efficient, which means more power can go to making noise. Small speakers will usually sound fine at lower levels and fall apart when pushing volume.

A small two way is always going to have a rough go at metal because the midbass driver (scanspeak 5 1/4 in this case) has to produce the majority of the energy. I think a properly set up 3 or 3.5 way would do a lot better because of cone area (alleviates xmax issue).

 

[Verig]

A good test track for scale and force. That 1:05--> riff needs some firm low end SPL. Quite problematic track for smaller speakers (and amps). It's not so much about low end extension but sustaining that at loud volume and keeping instruments not congested and small.

Not so extreme but similar test. Skip the intro and try 0:55 - 2:00. That middle part should sound very agile and effortless.

Edit: I feel like a teen saying this but right volume is when you physically feel it.

I usually post distortion tracks but these are interesting too.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not complex in composition, Complex mixing, several mikes on the same channel and mixer board at the same frequency. Often there are 8 microphones on the drums alone. On Stavinsky's Rite Of Spring recording, you don't have several microphones on each instrument, that would be impossible.

Modern classical recordings are mixed down from a lot of microphones whereas old ones tended to be recorded with a couple or 3 set further away.

IMO the older ones sound more natural but have a higher level of background noise.

I still find that recordings vary in quality by more than hifi equipment does and using the same speakers some sound fabulous and others awful. With rock music you are stuck with whatever you get which can be very disappointing.
At least with most classical music there are multiple recordings so hopefully one can find a good sounding version of a nice interpretation amongst them.

OTOH some of my absolute favourite performances are on issues with poor recording or mixing quality.

 

[Verig]

Test for room response and distortion. Can you hear bass drum and snare properly? Is the guitar all over the place and ripping your ears? It's not a "nice" sound to begin with but at loud volume it should be easy to distinguish the recorded distortion from driver saying hello or the reflections becoming overbearing.
There's no deep low end so this is just intense mid - high mid test. The size and placement of the guitar varies greatly between speakers.

@Frank Dernie
Very good point about multiple recordings of classical pieces.

 

[Frank Dernie]

'Harsh' is almost always a system problem, not on the recording.

I would have agreed 20 years ago but I have enough recordings that sound fabulous on my system I am now as sure as I can be that if the sound is bad it is the recording.

 

[Kervel]

My 20+ years of experience with extreme metal is that its all about the 100-500 hertz or so frequency range, with many instruments playing there at the same time. No super deep bass, and most recordings have fairly little dynamic range / lots of compression to sound 'louder'. It sounds best when played at high SPL (but I find that also holds for classical music). Honestly, my impression is that this is not especially demanding for most speakers.

 

[Sokel]

Not complex in composition, Complex mixing, several mikes on the same channel and mixer board at the same frequency. Often there are 8 microphones on the drums alone. On Stavinsky's Rite Of Spring recording, you don't have several microphones on each instrument, that would be impossible.

Mics ha?

Here's the locations of the mics and mic's trees in the BSO:

You can see the rest here:

(around 21:00 min)

I have anecdotes about stuff and genres,but the only music I was not allowed to play in an audio show all this years I attend is Strauss.
Lot's of heavy metal with my nephew,even in small 2-ways (admittedly not doing justice to it,except of old,big mid-bassed 2-ways) never a problem,some was even nice to my ears.

Tchaikovsky on the other hand...

 

[thunderchicken]

My 20+ years of experience with extreme metal is that its all about the 100-500 hertz or so frequency range, with many instruments playing there at the same time. No super deep bass, and most recordings have fairly little dynamic range / lots of compression to sound 'louder'. It sounds best when played at high SPL (but I find that also holds for classical music). Honestly, my impression is that this is not especially demanding for most speakers.

My experience is diametrically opposite. I don’t know how you define extreme here, but most of my favorites sound best at low volume where the drivers can keep up on my smaller speakers. Symbolic by Death comes to mind. On my larger 3 ways it sounds great even when I push the volume. On my stand mount 2 ways, low volume then suddenly everything falls apart.

There are some exceptions, but they have noticeably poor recordings (Purple by Baroness) and sound bad on both. Those only sound good in the car where I can’t hear the hash.

I think if speakers measure well and you’re reasonably in the sweet spot (or directivity zone or whatever you call it), they’ll faithfully reproduce the recording within their own SPL and THD limitations. Cost or “high end” doesn’t factor in at all. I could not buy my 2 ways today for less than $5k. My 3 ways are 35 year old hand me downs that might cost $300 to replace but will cost $5k to upgrade. (BA towers from 1990, eyeing Ascend’s Titan towers).

In my experience, my bigger speakers can play much louder before hitting a sound quality issue, but my small speakers sound better until the volume hits a certain level and then they don’t if that makes sense.

 

[Kervel]

If you want to play loud you definitely need bigger speakers, no question. But this is not something specific to metal music. I think metal is easy on the speakers, because of the little very deep bass (as compared to electronic and hiphop), and due to the low dynamic range (compared to classical).
Edit: Symbolic by Death is awesome btw.

 

[kemmler3D]

If you want to play loud you definitely need bigger speakers, no question. But this is not something specific to metal music. I think metal is easy on the speakers, because of the little very deep bass (as compared to electronic and hiphop), and due to the low dynamic range (compared to classical).
Edit: Symbolic by Death is awesome btw.

Metal is hard on speakers (aside from revealing FR defects) because the dense harmonics also create dense IMD and THD byproducts, so if IMD is a problem for the speaker the midrange and lower treble can start to sound bad. So to the extent the speaker is struggling with distortion at all, it will tend to come out regardless of size.

 

[Kervel]

Metal is hard on speakers because the dense harmonics also create dense IMD byproducts,

Yeah, but which of the many simultaneous effects dominate then? Erin's multitone tests reveal that in many speakers, a subwoofer high pass significantly reduces IMD. That seems similar to heavy metal with very little deep bass...

 

[kemmler3D]

Yeah, but which of the many simultaneous effects dominate then? Erin's multitone tests reveal that in many speakers, a subwoofer high pass significantly reduces IMD. That seems similar to heavy metal with very little deep bass...

It depends on the speaker... my point is just that you don't necessarily need deep bass to make a speaker sound bad.

 

[Vacceo]

Metal is hard on speakers (aside from revealing FR defects) because the dense harmonics also create dense IMD and THD byproducts, so if IMD is a problem for the speaker the midrange and lower treble can start to sound bad. So to the extent the speaker is struggling with distortion at all, it will tend to come out regardless of size.

When I got my mother her LS50 WII+KC62, I tried the set with Cryptopsy (None So Vile) and Necrophagist (Epitaph).

Both sounded perfectly fine, as in nothing was missing. Around 80 to 85 db at a couple meters, It was just well reproduced.

 

[Soria Moria]

A ton of metal is just plain badly mixed, often intentionally. Listen to this for example:

But I still find that having headphones EQed to Harman (I know the conversation isn't about headphones) makes it all sound better (usually) even when I know for a fact that the music was mixed on terrible unaccurate speakers. I think due to the wide frequencies used by metal having a balanced sound on your end is the most important thing and why metal sounds quite terrible on a lot of 'fancy' audiophile speakers that often are a bit too bright and uneven.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

There are some coherent heavy rock albums. Tool’s 10,000 days, perfect circle 13th step, our lady Peace (4am), tragically hip (new Orleans s sinking), creed (arms wide open)

What do you mean by ‘coherent’?

 

[Verig]

My 20+ years of experience with extreme metal is that its all about the 100-500 hertz or so frequency range, with many instruments playing there at the same time. No super deep bass, and most recordings have fairly little dynamic range / lots of compression to sound 'louder'. It sounds best when played at high SPL (but I find that also holds for classical music). Honestly, my impression is that this is not especially demanding for most speakers.

Similar to the very hot Marduk track I posted but this is more nineties messy wall of buzz and will sound rather interesting with many speakers. For example Kef LS50 Meta (and LS60) do absolutely fine here. Dynamic range and bass are nonexistent but that mid will rip some speakers (and rooms) to parts.