Do you need high end speakers for rock and heavy metal?

[Sokel]

The question here is probably if the set-up can blend or resolve to the finest nuance. eg. if it can play hard BUT also have the meat to play real low (at level, that's not trivial)
I don't think it's needed, rock can get away far easier.

It's not like you're critical listening (from the musical scope) Rachmaninoff's – Piano Concerto No. 3 which every quality is almost mandatory.
Rock probably needs a nice blending, a nice recording (if you're lucky with new stuff) and some serious real-estate mid-bass, that's all.

 

[goat76]

So you think a full orchestra playing a busy piece is as easy to reproduce as a solo vocal? Sure theres only one signal but it can be low bandwith, low dynamic, few impulses (not double kicks playing 16th notes) or it can be the opposite.

No, I don't think "a full orchestra playing a busy piece is as easy to reproduce as a solo vocal".
Are you satisfied with that answer?

 

[MatrixS2000]

An impact is an impact. Hes hitting his solo guitar. I can make a flute have large transients if I hit the mic with it.

That is my point. Each pluck of the string is also creating a transient.

 

[Cbdb2]

No, I don't think "a full orchestra playing a busy piece is as easy to reproduce as a solo vocal".
Are you satisfied with that answer?

Well that contradicts what you said earlier "The number of instruments playing at the same time is of no relevance at all"

 

[Vacceo]

The question here is probably if the set-up can blend or resolve to the finest nuance. eg. if it can play hard BUT also have the meat to play real low (at level, that's not trivial)
I don't think it's needed, rock can get away far easier.

It's not like you're critical listening (from the musical scope) Rachmaninoff's – Piano Concerto No. 3 which every quality is almost mandatory.
Rock probably needs a nice blending, a nice recording (if you're lucky with new stuff) and some serious real-estate mid-bass, that's all.

A good method to test capable speakers with Metal, at least in my experience, is going for the insanely fast and technical drummers, usually in Brutal Death. Bands such Decapitated, Cryptosy , Suffocation (anything with Mike Smith on drums), or Deeds of Flesh will quite quickly reveal if the speakers can keep up with the massive amount of sound a drumkit can produce.

 

[Sokel]

A good method to test capable speakers with Metal, at least in my experience, is going for the insanely fast and technical drummers, usually in Brutal Death. Bands such Decapitated, Cryptosy , Suffocation (anything with Mike Smith on drums), or Deeds of Flesh will quite quickly reveal if the speakers can keep up with the massive amount of sound a drumkit can produce.

Had a listen to them quickly, it seems to me that this "fast" feeling comes way higher than the lows, attacks are pronounced probably at highs.
I'll skip classical for insanely fast stuff as a lot here seems to not like it and I'll instead suggest the second half of "Speedway at Nazareth" (Mark Knopfler) which is both fast and low,bangs consistently at 30's with double strokes, etc.

 

[Vacceo]

Had a listen to them quickly, it seems to me that this "fast" feeling comes way higher than the lows, attacks are pronounced probably at highs.
I'll skip classical for insanely fast stuff as a lot here seems to not like it and I'll instead suggest the second half of "Speedway at Nazareth" (Mark Knopfler) which is both fast and low,bangs consistently at 30's with double strokes, etc.

That section could be found in any metal band that plays old school blastbeats on drums. Morbid Angel´s Rapture is a good example.

 

[goat76]

Well that contradicts what you said earlier "The number of instruments playing at the same time is of no relevance at all"

There is no contradiction in "the number of instruments playing at the same time is of no relevance at all", as they can all be very soft playing and not necessarily challenge the speakers much at all. The number of instruments is simply not a deciding factor, the energy is.

But if you say that "a full orchestra playing a busy piece", then it's a very good chance that that is more of a challenge for the speakers than a lonely solo vocalist, as there is likely more energy going on in a full orchestra playing a busy piece.

 

[Sokel]

That section could be found in any metal band that plays old school blastbeats on drums. Morbid Angel´s Rapture is a good example.

Not that low.
Evanescence tried them with the duo Artifact/The Turn - Broken Pieces Shine and it's either one or the other, you can tell the transition.
And nowhere clean as Knopfler, they seem like they run out of range.

 

[Sokel]

There is no contradiction in "the number of instruments playing at the same time is of no relevance at all", as they can all be very soft playing and not necessarily challenge the speakers much at all. The number of instruments is simply not a deciding factor, the energy is.

But if you say that "a full orchestra playing a busy piece", then it's a very good chance that that is more of a challenge for the speakers than a lonely solo vocalist, as there is likely more energy going on in a full orchestra playing a busy piece.

Accept tried to fit the DR of Marche Slave* (and some other classical as Für Elise,etc) at their Metal heart.
The comparison with original scores is just staggering, there's no way to reach this perceived feeling of dynamics.

*Edit: have a listen to it by Reiner and CSO which is modest in dynamics but probably one of the best in terms of musical translation, depth, etc.

 

[MatrixS2000]

The number of instruments is simply not a deciding factor, the energy is.

Which is what I have been saying:

Still looks more like a loudness issue than a density of transients issue.

 

[Wolf]

Nightwish - Dark Passion Play Special Edition with the symphony accompaniment is a very complex recording. When it is right, and Annette is in the right spot in the mix, this is while not an ultra-clean recording, it also includes a lot of tracks in the mix including a singing chorus. Only a few of my speaker project builds have done this recording the best justice with resolving all of the tracks going on. When they don't, it is a blur.

 

[goat76]

Nightwish - Dark Passion Play Special Edition with the symphony accompaniment is a very complex recording. When it is right, and Annette is in the right spot in the mix, this is while not an ultra-clean recording, it also includes a lot of tracks in the mix including a singing chorus. Only a few of my speaker project builds have done this recording the best justice with resolving all of the tracks going on. When they don't, it is a blur.

Have you found any classical recordings that will reveal the same problems in your speakers as that rock recording?

 

[Sokel]

Have you found any classical recordings that will reveal the same problems in your speakers as that rock recording?

If a classical recording (no matter how complex) ever come out having problems like this it better prepare itself for tar and feathers.
The scrutiny they are under at the classical forums have no match.

 

[Sokel]

Have you found any classical recordings that will reveal the same problems in your speakers as that rock recording?

To give you an example of your music, have a listen at "Diary of a Madman" (the track) , Ozzy got the creme de la creme back then to do it.

Go to the end where they unfortunately decided to use a small chorus. They had to up it so much more than the rest of the instruments they ended up as an accompanying soup.
I can understand the choice, they had to be loud for Ozzy and Randy so no more room for the rest.

And we're talking simple stuff here, nothing even remotely complex, that's a Monday for classical:

(link)

(red and green are the mics and mic trees )

 

[MatrixS2000]

To give you an example of your music, have a listen at "Diary of a Madman" (the track) , Ozzy got the creme de la creme back then to do it.

Go to the end where they unfortunately decided to use a small chorus. They had to up it so much more than the rest of the instruments they ended up as an accompanying soup.
I can understand the choice, they had to be loud for Ozzy and Randy so no more room for the rest.

To support your statements with measurements:

Diary of a Madman - CD:

Loud at the cost of dynamics:

But maybe we should be using good examples of the genre (rock/metal) to make comparisons.

Here is a well recorded space rock song from King Buffalo:

Hours from the Regenerator album (I randomly picked this one, you can pick any song from King Buffalo as they are all well recorded).

Hours (digital download):

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Do you need high end speakers for rock and heavy metal?​

I need neutral, near-full-range speakers capable of delivering high, clean, and uncompressed SPL.
And that might very well qualify as high-end speakers in the truest sense of the word.

 

[goat76]

To support your statements with measurements:

Diary of a Madman - CD:

View attachment 444033

Loud at the cost of dynamics:
View attachment 444032
But maybe we should be using good examples of the genre (rock/metal) to make comparisons.

Here is a well recorded space rock song from King Buffalo:

Hours from the Regenerator album (I randomly picked this one, you can pick any song from King Buffalo as they are all well recorded).

Hours (digital download):
View attachment 444036
View attachment 444035

I don't think dynamics is crucial here. A speaker that can't handle rock music very well will struggle no matter how much of the dynamics are contained in the audio productions or not. I think that a highly dynamically-limited metal production can be even more revealing if the speakers can handle it, as that will make it even harder to hear the different layerings without making a total mess out of it.

 

[Sokel]

I don't think dynamics is crucial here. A speaker that can't handle rock music very well will struggle no matter how much of the dynamics are contained in the audio productions or not. I think that a highly dynamically-limited metal production can be even more revealing if the speakers can handle it, as that will make it even harder to hear the different layerings without making a total mess out of it.

Dynamics is crucial to "Diary", they just didn't succeed to it, chorus suppose to be the voices in his head going louder, I understand the artistic choice.
And it's probably egos* that butchered the dynamic range even a small chorus can have. Ok we're not talking Carmina Burana here that can demolish stuff but still.


* (egos have a long tradition in hard rock, rock, etc, remember Rainbow for example, they created havoc in studios )

 

[Ziltoe]

I need neutral, near-full-range speakers capable of delivering high, clean, and uncompressed SPL.
And that might very well qualify as high-end speakers in the truest sense of the word.

Get the Klipsch the Nines and shut up my dear ; )

Kidding but näeh, no so callled high end speaker can. Particularly when it comes to high, clean and uncompressed SPL. Perhaps you can specify a bit
more what your understanding of "high, clean, and uncompressed SPL" is. Perhaps good PA will make it?

To me, metal needs, as every genre, an "uncoulored" speaker, a bit of room treatment and a bite of DSP to fit taste.