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Do you have prejudices that you can't get rid of? (Lets stick to audio)

I would go so far as to suggest that the modern pop music producers and engineers have to be even more skilled than those required for producing the likes of jazz and classical music. For classical music it is just a case of getting a good recording of the instruments played. Modern pop music production and engineering can be very difficult to produce and record. Way more varied and complex equipment involved IMHO.
(I enjoy all of the genres above btw.)
Different skills. Classical recordings are much more 'documentary' i.e. capturing a live performance, even though also make up of many different takes. Pop recordings are much more about creating a sound in the final recording, as there was never a sound to be captured live. It's all processed from different takes, different sample, with a lot of Special Effects added on.
With Classical recordings, the skill is in choosing the venue, positioning the microphones and choosing which takes to use in the final version. Editing for a 'transparent' transition between takes such that it all sounds like one long take. Pop recording and editing is much more about creating the recording in the mix.

I wouldn't suggest one is more skilful than the other, just different.

S.
 
I am so sick of people insisting on unreal levels of bit depth and sample rate when Nyquist clearly shows 24/48 adequate for home listening. I used to be a snob about MP3s and compressed formats but I certainly can't hear a difference after repeated blind tests and my speaker are certainly "revealing enough". Ditto for DSD, seems a clever way to induce sales of media and "features" though certainly a better listening experience than vinyl.

High resolution audio is often misunderstood, but it's to be expected since the industry falsely advertises what it represents and targets it to the wrong target audience.

High resolution music is useful for DAC hardware and DSP.

DAC's work best with high sample rate audio. All* DACs do their own internal oversampling because it's easier (as in cheaper, less labor intensive, and less digitally complex) to create a proper reconstruction filter with high sample rates audio compared to low sample rate audio. And yes, 44.1, 48, even 96 is considered low sample rate to the DAC. High(er) resolution audio puts less "burden" on this oversampling process by having some of it already baked in from the source and not artificially created. It's akin to native resolution on LCD and OLED screens. Most* 4K TVs have native resolution - they can only output a 4K image (even if you feed it otherwise). Would you rather feed them a 720p source to stretch to 4K or feed them 1080p to stretch? Or you could do better and provide them 1440p. The stretching has to happen because it needs that 4K output, just like how almost all* DACs need that high sample rate to work with. It's something designers choose to work around to the point where it's like a physical limitation now. But you could bypass the entire resizer on a TV by just feeding it 4K. Same for audio. Whether or not you hear a difference is another issue entirely, but if you treat audio as a chain, feeding in higher sample rates makes the DAC more "transparent"/pure because you're not utilizing an extra step of DSP. If you feed it 96000, it won't have to oversample as much.

*Before this was known, this concept was explored in the 90s with NOS (no oversampling) DACs which instead of oversampling, run at the rate of target music being played. So if you input 44.1, it outputs 44.1 . Conclusion: it's hard to make a reconstruction filter with that necessary steep drop off near 20k. It can be done, but it's not easy. It also fucking really limits the choice of filter types such as linear phase sharp, minimum phase slow, etc, because you literally don't have enough bandwidth to "create" a good impulse response (remember that impulse response and frequency range are functions of each other - another reason why oversampling is chosen - higher sample rate audio "creates" higher frequency range). This is a whole can of worms if you want to dive in, with DAC reconstruction filters functioning as a necessary evil to deal with the reality of low sample rate music being ubiquitous, and the different approaches of reconstruction serving as both functions of faithful reproduction or subtle tone shaping along the way. Ultimately, the first attempts at digital audio dropped the ball in this realm through unintentional ignorance and didn't take electronics into account. Now we have this RedBook standard, with this naive aspect built in, that refuses to die.

The second use for it is DSP. Signal processors can work differently depending on the source material, just like all forms of A/V signal processing. This can be because of aliasing, pushing an algorithm too hard, or even hand tweaked differences depending on the sampling rate (VST plugins). Going back to the TV example, sharpening. The sharpening feature looks uglier the lower resolution and lower bitrate videos you feed it. You can't crank it because you expose it's own internal weaknesses (halos, geometric shapes, too much contrast, etc), however you can start cranking it when you feed it higher resolution and higher bitrate videos. So the processing step isn't just a function of how well it's designed. And the same applies to high resolution audio - if you use a iZotope Declipper, EQs, stereo wideners, etc. The higher resolution audio should take to signal processing better. Again, if there is a perceivable difference to listener is another thing. And if it's subtle or easy to detect is another thing, but the concept is also sound.

I don't know much about DSD and don't it or MQA seriously because of what you said. They seem like fundamental greed experiences first and foremost with the implementations of how to access them and potentially dangerous endgame scenarios that would transpire if they became the default for audio. And even if they were better, hell, we can't move people beyond Redbook or 24/48 after decades! And now you want us to break free of PCM and go to something else radically different!? Maybe if human beings had another 100,000 years of evolution or differently structured brains.
 
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Digital pianos: these go "plink plonk" and there is a sameness to every note. There is a richness to a real piano, probably because each frequency does not have the same resonance, and some notes might vibrate other strings in resonance.

This is a shame. While it's true that we'll never probably recreate the exact analog experience digitally, that's for a variety of factors, not just it being digital. I say it's a shame because there amazing digital pianos available for musicians to play! And if they come too "perfect" or flat out of the box, they include ways to make them more imperfect and random. I love playing with the detune knob for one!

The good sampled pianos have like a dozen or more velocity layers per key available, and you can create your own velocity effects by modulating other parameters too. You also have digital prepared pianos like UVI's that let you get crazy with unconventional piano conditions. And then there is Pianoteq, which is physical modeling. It tries to recreate the discrete processes that go into pianos making sound at the fundamental levels and should take into account the physics that you believe are lost in digital pianos (well, as much as it's designs provide and the power of your computer).
 
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This is a shame. While it's true that we'll never probably recreate the exact analog experience digitally, that's for a variety of factors, not just it being digital. I say it's a shame because there amazing digital pianos available for musicians to play! And if they come too "perfect" or flat out of the box, they include ways to make them more imperfect and random. I love playing with the detune knob for one!

The good sampled pianos have like a dozen or more velocity layers per key available, and you can create your own velocity effects by modulating other parameters too. You also have digital prepared pianos like UVI's that let you get crazy with unconventional piano conditions. And then there is Pianoteq, which is physical modeling. It tries to recreate the discrete processes that go into pianos making sound at the fundamental levels and should take into account the physics that you believe are lost in digital pianos (well, as much as it's designs provide and the power of your computer).

Do you know of any good recordings of digital pianos which sound like real pianos?
 
Do you know of any good recordings of digital pianos which sound like real pianos?
I found out about digital pianos a few years ago and bought my daughter a Casio CELVIANO Grand Hybrid.
I find the sound very convincing.
It has a weighted wooden keyboard and was made in cooperation with Bechstein.


 
A lot of predjudices (Class D amps, streaming devices, cheap cables) melted away like ice in the sun during the last years.

I still can't stomach horn speakers, on-ear headphones (especially Grado) and BD/DVD players without a front display.
 
Hi, I'm So-and-so and a long time planar-magnetic headphone proponent developing prejudice for listening to electrostatic headphones.
 
Me too , I think Quad have bought out some new ones .

It was my dream once to have a full Quad system with ESLs.

Alas my dream now is to wake up having slept for more than 4 hours , manage to keep my ibuprofen dose to less than 600mg a day , get to work without feeling like my body has taken a express ride round the Hadron Collider .
I am in my 84th year and extend you my sympathy. Ask your doctor for meloxicam - helps me better than ibuprofen.
 
All* DACs do their own internal oversampling because it's easier (as in cheaper, less labor intensive, and less digitally complex) to create a proper reconstruction filter with high sample rates audio compared to low sample rate audio.
The design of the final reconstruction filter is not the only issue here. If a signal is oversampled in advance of that final reconstruction filter, then the oversampled signal itself must be filtered to remove spectral images above half the original sampling frequency. The important fact here is that the required filtering is much easier to do in digital than it is in analog.

For example, one could construct an analog filter from 0.1% resistors, capacitors, and inductors. It would be expensive, but the one-part-in-one-thousand component accuracy, and the resulting performance, could be matched by a digital filter with just 10-bit coefficients. And the performance of the analog filter would change with temperature, humidity, and age. It is just so much easier to achieve and maintain both high accuracy and high precision in a digital filter than in an analog filter.
 
Try the Sanders 10e system - I think he got it right.

Tillman

I’ve always wanted to hear them.

Though I understand not surprisingly they are a “ head in a vice” listening experience, typical of such electrostatics, which for me is a turn off too.

So it’s one of those loud speakers that I would love to have an opportunity to listen to, even though I know it wouldn’t be for me in terms of owning them.
 
*I'd much rather put-up with an analog turntable's glitches - snap, crackle, pop - over digital contents' artifacts - burps, farts, drop-outs - any day!
*I get irked-off when manufacturers' and/or review websites/advertisements do not showcase the back-panel of audio gear; where most of the interfaces/connections reside.
*Thanks to plasticized (rubberized?) volume knobs; Yamaha is no longer invited to my house.
*I 'disdained' that white lab-coat salesman in audio magazines (etc.)... always posing in front of audio equipment.;)
 
*I 'disdained' that white lab-coat salesman in audio magazines (etc.)... always posing in front of audio equipment.;)
Some of his/their audio equipment was quite nice) -- plus he, like I, is a Hoppie! :)

 
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I am in my 84th year and extend you my sympathy. Ask your doctor for meloxicam - helps me better than ibuprofen.
Yeah, meloxicam is way better than ibuprofen. But way, way tougher on your stomach lining. Not for long term use I don't think.
 
Not sure if these are prejudices but here goes:

- has to be XLR (analog and digital).... I just like the reassuring "click" when you plug them in... RCA's seems a bit wonky to me
- Give me Linux or give me death.... won't consider any other OS for computer playback (or for any other use!!!)
- keep the signal chain as simple as possible
- as a computer based playback devotee (having dropped vinyl after 40 years and CD's after 25) ya don't need fancy switches/routers/reclockers for ethernet.
- if you do have the opportunity (i.e. a dedicated space) you have to treat the room else you are doing an injustice to your system
- Don't keep upgrading.... move your speakers around (and your listening position as well).... you will get a better outcome

These are 100% a prejudice:

- I will spend extra for a nice looking device, must have a silver aluminium face plate and it must have symmetry with regard to the placement of knobs, buttons and displays. It could be the best device in the world but without the aforementioned, no sale.
- if it's not Blues or Jazz (pre 1970) then it doesn't get a look in (exceptions for Rory Gallagher, Roy Buchanan and Neil Young)

Peter
 
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Even if that is a photo of their back-panels... nimby 2 Hoppies?
Back panels... I like to see them, even if some of them flummox me*. The problem is that some of us are terminally mal-organized. :oops: ;)


__________________________
* On topic (!) :eek: - I guess I have deeply ingrained, knee-jerk aversion to prejudice against complexity in audio reproduction strategies. A guess a nexus for my disdain is the AVR... to adapt a popular, pithy American expression: n kilos of nitrogen-rich waste material in an n/2 kilo-sized container. :cool:

1742815672624.jpeg


(image borrowed from
this very site, as the watermark notes ;))

Looking at that puts me to mind of Dr. Heywood Floyd reading the zero-gravity toilet instructions in Kubrick's 2001. :)
1742815773494.jpeg
 
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