Do you care where your speakers are manufactured?

[sigbergaudio]

OT: The Tesla Model 3 sold in Europe are built in China and have better paint and assembly than those built in the United States.

That is off topic, but yes, I don't know what it is about the USA and cars, they've always done a poor job with both paint and assembly accuracy (inconsistent panel gaps etc) compared to Europe (and apparently China).

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I can't answer the survey accurately.

I consider the working conditions of labor in my purchases, as one of many factors. Neither China nor Norway are local, but differ greatly in terms of worker conditions and exploitation. In practice, at very low price points, this does not matter. As cost goes up, more options open up, and it matters more and more.

Local spending stays in my community, so do prefer that all things being equal. But I mean VERY local, like my city and surrounding area.

 

[A Surfer]

That's like saying people in so called non democratic country's do not deserve the right to grow up economically because they do not meet the standards of so called pay to play "democratic" country's who are the gold standard.

I fully agree. Our societies in the west are dripping with a history of absolute monarchies, feudalism, slave and child labor. Not to mention the displacement and subjugation of Indigenous peoples.

We only arrived where we are at great cost. People in glass houses should not throw stones I have been told.

 

[Petrushka]

I fully agree. Our societies in the west are dripping with a history of absolute monarchies, feudalism, slave and child labor. Not to mention the displacement and subjugation of Indigenous peoples.

We only arrived where we are at great cost. People in glass houses should not throw stones I have been told.

And only recently. And still working on it.

 

[Mnyb]

That's like saying people in so called non democratic country's do not deserve the right to grow up economically because they do not meet the standards of so called pay to play "democratic" country's who are the gold standard.

It’s not quite what I meant , the people are sadly collateral victims . Because you can’t do the enconomic growt thing without also empowering dangerous governments that really should not wield any influence in the world I wish it where possible , the last few years has proven that’s it impossible. It backfired spectacularly .

All people everywhere deserves a better life .

I actually was a believer in the free trade idea that you should grow the economy of the whole world in every country and the situation should automatically improve with well educated middle class eventually spawn everywhere and drive all countries towards something better .
Peaceful cooperation towards a better place for us all.

Instead the newly gained economic power is used as economic warfare . In good tradition of hydraulic economies in ancient times ie controlling a river which was the trick back then ( the punters downstream was at your mercy) . Now its natural gas to or buying up strategic energy production facilities and growth industries in other countries . We are going to eventually loose all off our freedom wealth a power and be begging assorted autocratic despots for some morsels .

I think I’ll voluntary leave this tread be for now peace ….

 

[MattHooper]

Are you buying speakers from Danny at GR Research again? Tube connectors and replace those cheesy crossovers?

Upgraded to new model by manufacturer - new drivers/motor/crossover…

 

[JiiPee]

I fully agree. Our societies in the west are dripping with a history of absolute monarchies, feudalism, slave and child labor. Not to mention the displacement and subjugation of Indigenous peoples.

We only arrived where we are at great cost. People in glass houses should not throw stones I have been told.

So, if my ancestors did something wrong hundreds of years ago, I should not only approve similar wrongdoing today, but also be a willing accessory to such wrongdoing by financially supporting it ?

 

[A Surfer]

So, if my ancestors did something wrong hundreds of years ago, I should not only approve similar wrongdoing today, but also be a willing accessory to such wrongdoing by financially supporting it ?

I really don't think we are having the same conversation. Regardless, may I ask how it is that you go about not perpetuating the harms you are speaking about?

 

[JiiPee]

I really don't think we are having the same conversation. Regardless, may I ask how it is that you go about not perpetuating the harms you are speaking about?

As far as I can see, Your message (and the message You fully agreed on) was: "Because western societies have committed various atrocities in the past, members of western societies today are not entitled to judge behavior of other societies" i.e. You support moral relativism. I posted my response, because I strongly oppose that stance.

To give a comprehensive answer to Your question requires more space than is suitable for this thread, and it would inevitably lead to a kind of political debate we are asked to avoid, but to give You an example: As I have posted earlier on this thread, my spending decisions are affected by my moral judgement (unlike some others, who are just looking for good product quality per dollar, for example).

 

[A Surfer]

As far as I can see, Your message (and the message You fully agreed on) was: "Because western societies have committed various atrocities in the past, members of western societies today are not entitled to judge behavior of other societies" i.e. You support moral relativism. I posted my response, because I strongly oppose that stance.

To give a comprehensive answer to Your question requires more space than is suitable for this thread, and it would inevitably lead to a kind of political debate we are asked to avoid, but to give You an example: As I have posted earlier on this thread, my spending decisions are affected by my moral judgement (unlike some others, who are just looking for good product quality per dollar, for example).

We'll not carry the conversation on further because it can only become political/philosophical and not really what the community wants I'm sure. Thanks for the reply, I will only say that while I can understand why you arose at that conclusion about my position, ultimately it is an oversimplification, but I do see how that might have occurred. Peace out.

 

[Waxx]

Focal-JMlab still works from France (Saint Etienne and Bourbon-Lancy, Saône-et-Loire), and many speakerdriver makers still work at least partly from europe. You got the relative unkown but big OEM builder Kartesian in Strassburg (France), Scanspeak has a big factory in Videbaek (Denmark) working for their own and brands like EAD, Jordan, Seas still produces in Olso (Norway) ... B&C speakers are made in Bagno a Ripoli (Florence), Italy, 18Sound is in Reggio Emilia in Italy, Faital Pro has their factory still in Milan (i've been there actually), ...

So there is no lack of production in Europe, but they are not the cheapest part of the market. There it's hard to compete with countries with less labor rights and other regulations, and our market is not really protected against that disadvantage. Europe is still largely on the forefront of speaker technology altough, with many of the highest rated brands of drivers still based in Europe (except JBL/Revell/Harman and Kiplisch) and some boutique brands. The OEM they sell very often goes to asia for assembly into speaker cabinets, but the main parts, the drivers are made here.

It's mainly the cheaper mass market speakers that come from Asia, where the labor and other costs are more important because the sale price is lower.

 

[rank]

First of all, I would place the occupation of the entirety of "Europe" by the EU entity that has nothing to do with it as the main obstacle to trade and innovation.
You omitted Audax, Beyma, PHL. The prices of these loudspeakers are quite reasonable, considering the fact that the main customers come from the sound industry where their solidity and longevity work wonders.
All the remarks on this page are no longer politics and even less economics, the two having definitively merged into plutocracy. Who claims to be from Athenian democracy, it sounds better.
Indeed since 1991, even North Korea has sunk into the cult of the commodity denounced in their time by Clouscard or Pasolini. No one dares to claim to be Marxist anymore.

 

[Birdy]

There it's hard to compete with countries with less labor rights and other regulations, and our market is not really protected against that disadvantage.

That is the main reason that European and American companies (Apple, Tesla, Philips, Samsung ect. ect.) outsources their production to country's like China, India, Vietnam, Indonesia ect. To increase profit margins and have cheap labor. American consumers profited as well with low prices and deflation so they still could buy lots of stuff, even with less income. Now US and EU blame these country's for "low labor rights" and pollution which they them self exported to these regions and took the benefits of cheap production and high profits. This is at least a very ambiguous position to take, not to say a dishonest and hypocritical one!

 

[Bleib]

No one dares to claim to be Marxist anymore.

Well, Juche is quite different. And essentially, any real Marxist would want to topple people with too much power, that's the problem to begin with.
"all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others " as Orwell put it..

But back to the topic, a lot could be said. Whilst it's not great how living conditions are in many places I also believe that it's not just the western world who should be wealthy and that with wealth people are in a better position to demand better terms for themselves. Including not working 12 hour days and in heavily polluted areas.

Overall, profit motive rules the world too much, we try to create infinite wealth growth out from something that is finite, which obviously makes humans an ecological disaster.
I don't exclude myself from this, small country but boy do we consume tons of crap

Also, tons of things simply are not available locally, corps go where they can maximize profits

 

[rank]

Finally an articulate answer, I admit that I was starting to despair.
Maurice Duverger said the same thing as Orwell, like what...
Well there are as many Marxisms as Marxists (as there are as many believers as beliefs), he and Engels essentially provided an analysis tending to prove that capitalism is inefficient.Which everyone can see.
In terms of solutions, nothing. They advocate a dictatorship so a remedy worse than the disease.
It's a bit like Christianity: the rich and the powerful (who are in fact the same), evil. But the apostles founded several Churches...Always very close to power.
Juche borrows quite clearly from Stalinism, like Outer Mongolia in its time, but no country has applied communism as no Christian applies the demands of Jesus.
As for "development", a rather imprecise term, we note that it could only have taken place in countries with high IQ and semi-controlled birth rate (the two being linked). Worse still, the richest countries today have never been underdeveloped. I don't know where you are from, I am from France but lived for a long time in Germany which is close to my home, but the pollution you are talking about and the idea of a finite world show that current capital is no longer the solution. But the leaders don't want to change it.
Otherwise they lose everything.

 

[JiiPee]

That is the main reason that European and American companies (Apple, Tesla, Philips, Samsung ect. ect.) outsources their production to country's like China, India, Vietnam, Indonesia ect. To increase profit margins and have cheap labor. American consumers profited as well with low prices and deflation so they still could buy lots of stuff, even with less income. Now US and EU blame these country's for "low labor rights" and pollution which they them self exported to these regions and took the benefits of cheap production and high profits. This is at least a very ambiguous position to take, not to say a dishonest and hypocritical one!

Do You really think that a western consumer, who lost his job as a consequence of outsourcing, has benefited from it ?

The economic policies aiming for industrialization without any moral concerns (regarding nature, human rights, or anything else) of both China and Russia have been due to their governments own decisions. Western countries did not export Stalin's Five Years Plans and Mao's "Great Leap Forward" to those countries. China and Russia have continued on their "industrialization at any cost" road regardless of what western countries have said, or done.

Both China and Russia are totalitarian dictatorships pursuing aggressive expansionist foreign policies based on massive investments in military forces, and every country, organization, and individual that helps to bolster those countries economies in any way, is a willing accessory to their policies.

Yes, western societies have committed atrocities in the past. Some out of greed, some out of ignorance, but that does not give anybody the right to continue such behavior, when their consequences are clear to everybody. It would not be impossible for BRICS countries to prosper without continuing the bad practices. All it takes is to have an honest evaluation of their own policies, instead of blaming others for every problem they face.

 

[Bleib]

Yes, western societies have committed atrocities in the past

It's not in the past. There are many who want to move the NATO project closer to China in order to establish western dominance. This is also what the oil wars are about. Nobody would care about Iran or Iraq if it wasn't for the oil.
And suppose North Korea did what China did, opened up their labor to western companies, they'd be there quickly if it increased profits. Obviously NK workers are not in the position to demand high wages for example, or good working conditions.

If you're a liberal minded person in Saudiarabia you cannot expect western powers to get rid of the theocracy, business is great. This is exceptionally common so generally those who try to appear good seldom do if things are examined closer. Obviously Putin also sells the illegal attack on Ukraine as defense, just like west did when it went to Iraq looking for weapons that we knew weren't there.

When I purchase a Topping product or SMSL product my hope is that the Chinese citizens move steps closer in the end to get rid of the Chinese, well, basically one party dictatorship.

Another aspect of this is that people want things cheaply, if they can get product X for not a major cost they can have more money to other things. This is what made Walmart HUGE, but obviously that can come at a high cost as well as wages are dumped because it's basically one of the few places one can find work. Mom and pop stores are gone, can't compete.
A big business can dump their prices in a new location, outcompete everyone else and once they are gone raise the prices and sent most of it to people who do not need even more cash. But that's how things tend to operate, especially since people tend to vote for market based solutions.

 

[A Surfer]

Finally an articulate answer, I admit that I was starting to despair.

Someone may be suffering from a sense of superiority.

 

[Willem]

Something tells me that given the significant differences in living standards in Europe between the different EU countries: it must be possible to find a cheaper manufacturer of loudspeaker boxes, delivered to your home... than from China ...several countries have leading carpentry and cabinetmaking workshops...

This actually applies for many products. Lower wage EU countries are used for a lot of somewhat labour intensive manufacturing. Makita manufacture quite a lot of their power tools in Hungary and Romania, and Millwaukee in the Czech Republic. My Makita Orbital sander is even manufactured in the Carolinas. Covid reminded many EU manufacturers of the risk of long supply lines, and quite a few have moved production back to Europe.
Personally I like EU produced products for their adherence to labour and environmental standards. Some Chinese electronics (and cars) are out for me, because of security concerns.

 

[JiiPee]

It's not in the past. There are many who want to move the NATO project closer to China in order to establish western dominance. This is also what the oil wars are about. Nobody would care about Iran or Iraq if it wasn't for the oil.
And suppose North Korea did what China did, opened up their labor to western companies, they'd be there quickly if it increased profits. Obviously NK workers are not in the position to demand high wages for example, or good working conditions.

If you're a liberal minded person in Saudiarabia you cannot expect western powers to get rid of the theocracy, business is great. This is exceptionally common so generally those who try to appear good seldom do if things are examined closer. Obviously Putin also sells the illegal attack on Ukraine as defense, just like west did when it went to Iraq looking for weapons that we knew weren't there.

When I purchase a Topping product or SMSL product my hope is that the Chinese citizens move steps closer in the end to get rid of the Chinese, well, basically one party dictatorship.

Another aspect of this is that people want things cheaply, if they can get product X for not a major cost they can have more money to other things. This is what made Walmart HUGE, but obviously that can come at a high cost as well as wages are dumped because it's basically one of the few places one can find work. Mom and pop stores are gone, can't compete.
A big business can dump their prices in a new location, outcompete everyone else and once they are gone raise the prices and sent most of it to people who do not need even more cash. But that's how things tend to operate, especially since people tend to vote for market based solutions.

"There are many who want to move the NATO project closer to China in order to establish western dominance." - Do You have any factual evidence to support this claim ? What do You mean by "Many" ? Do You really think this is the policy of NATO ? Who has made expansionist moves and claiming new territories as theirs in that area lately - NATO, or China ?

Saudi-Arabia is an independent country. Are You seriously saying that western countries should attack Saudi-Arabia to get rid of the rulers there ? So, attacking Iraq to get rid of Saddam Hussein was wrong, but attacking Saudi-Arabia to get rid of the House of Saud would be ok ? I have zero sympathy for .theocracies, but how about leaving the faith of Sauds to the people of Saudi-Arabia ?

When You buy something made in China, You are in Your own small way supporting economically and strategically the Chinese ruling government, and in doing so You make it less likely that there would be any positive power transfer in near future.

I agree with You in what You wrote in the last chapter of Your post. In my posts on this thread I have tried to argue that while I am in favor of market economy as an economical platform, there are other things that people should also consider, when making their buying decisions. I have no illusions that my rants change anything, but I still want to present my own viewpoint every now and then...