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Do we want side wall reflections?

It's explained earlier; the left panel is reflecting for the right speaker:

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Agreed, but that’s a very slim band for reflections maybe 1cm. If it was the purpose then why not moving the panel 20cm frontward?
And should these really be considered as “late” reflections? All distances/delay are pretty small there.
The fact that they also added simple reflective panels over the diffusors on the rear wall must have been part of the goal (but I’m making a lot of conjectures without reading the paper).
 
When we consider side wall reflections or other reflections in a small room, I believe we need distinguish between accuracy and personal preferences. Accuracy is something we can look at a more from a scientific viewpoint. That was the approach with the development of LEDE. The goal was to hear the recorded signal as accurately as possible. Whether you want that at home, is an entirely personal choice. Personally, I don’t believe there will be a scientific result for “preferences”. Preferences here will vary depending on the music genre, the rooms geometry, the acoustics of the room, speaker directivity, and probably the mood of the day!

But let’s go back to accuracy and what happened during the development of LEDE. The name LEDE (live and dead end) is unfortunately quite misleading of what the design turned into. The reason for that is that design developed over many years with the introduction of ETC measurements that came along later and with diffusers, that also came along later. So LEDE was eventually not a design where you made one end completely dead and the other live. It only started that way.

Instead, treating specular reflections with surgical precision and not absorb at unnecessary surfaces became very important. A quality LEDE room would therefore not be dead or dry, but combine accuracy with a lot of energy.

In the development of LEDE listening tests were done over many years. Some sighted and some blind. The quantity of listeners varied. All of this was shared in news letters, long before the internet. Was there enough participants to make it statistical? I don’t know if that was the case, but I assume for the most part it wasn't. From some of the newsletter I have, I can see that the numbers varied. But let’s keep in mind here that we’re not really discussing something that is audible or not.

What was found out in these researchers was the following:

All specular energy had a negative impact on accuracy or hearing the recorded signal detailed as possible. The earlier more vs late arrival ones. Some more than others depending on the angle they arrived from. The earlier they arrived, the more detrimental effect did they have on localization, tonality, localization and imaging. Discrete reflections would also become audible if other were suppressed.

The result of this was they they created a reflective free zone. Since this was only for one listening position, it didn’t require large surface area to be treated. It did involve at least side wall reflections, ceiling reflections, and if baffle step from speakers was high; an area on the front wall also needed some treatment.

Absorption was however, not the only treatment used here. Angled panels or angled walls and sometimes ceiling were also used to create what was considered to be an anechoic listening area. Reflections needed to be attenuated a minimum of 25 dB to be considered inaudible or anechoic. The treatment needed to be effective down to at least the Schroeder frequency, something thin and small absorption panels don’t achieve.

Using slanted walls and ceiling had a clear benefit vs absorption panels, because this eventually led to more diffuse energy. The rear wall was treated with, diffusion, when the diffusers entered the scene. The first QRD diffusers were incredible deep (60 cm I believe) and made out of concrete. The first commercial ones were 23 cm deep.

The idea with diffusion in the rear of the room was to achieve a closer result to the best concert halls, where the late arrival side wall reflections created development and spaciousness,. But also accuracy by removing late arriving high gain specular energy without making the room dead. The diffused energy should arrive 2-5 ms later than the time arrival of the recorded signal. This implied that the diffuse energy would normally arrive at 20 ms or later in most LEDE rooms. Which also happens to be in the area of the arrival of lateral contribution of the best concert halls at that time.

Temporal diffusion.jpg


Later the studies over Toole/Olive came and seemed to indicate something else to some degree. We have the reaearch called “Perception of reflections in typical rooms”.
It was conducted in an anechoic chamber and in what’s called a normal room. The “normal room” isn’t very well described but it says:
The room was first used in its most "live" form, with the movable curtains compressed into the corners. The mid-frequency reverberation time was about 0.4 s. Then the early reflections from adjacent room boundaries were reduced in amplitude by careful positioning of the curtains and the addition of some absorbing materials.

Since we don’t know what absorption was used here and how much area they covered, we can’t really know how valid the research was. A curtain with some addition of some absorbing material sounds very much like very bandlimited treatment that mainly effect the highs, but that’s speculation on my part.

Whether an anechoic chamber is good place to conduct such a study is also to something to discuss. Some other studies like Barron (1971) and Barron & Marshall (1981) were also conducted in an anechoic chamber.

Toole/Olive addressed the LEDE concept but they seem to have been made a mistake which has to large degree cost them respect in many acoustic circles. They didn’t address the latest LEDE design but a former design, when it was under development and before diffusers were used. Before the use of QRD diffusers, hard panels were used in specific places in the rear of the room to create what was called Haas kicker or trigger. It was an experiment to use something else than only absorption in the rear (to avoid dead rooms), and it also had certain psychoacoustical effects. However, the Haas kicker died away as soon as diffusers came along. Toole/Olive criticized the outdated older design.

Later comes the notion from Olive/Toole that lateral reflections wasn’t as bad but could actually be preferable. However, this was not looked up from a place of accuracy but was more about preferences. Something that was also discovered in the development of LEDE. Especially late arriving lateral reflections could be pleasing and preferable with some types of music. But preferences and accuracy are not the same! The LEDE concept was about hearing the recorded signal as well as possible. Or as an acoustician called Russel Berger said:
“Olive/Toole’s tests bear out what we already know, that strong lateral reflections can sound "better" to test subject listeners. Unfortunately for him and his argument, is that reading the results from his own test data, presents a completely different picture, when it is viewed and analyzed through the lens that is is ones intent to create a room that accurately references source material.

We found this out early on with the experimental LEDE rooms that employed what we then mistakenly called "Haas Kickers" or panels that provided strong reflections of the direct sound from behind, but delayed through time-of-flight placement to arrive in a manner to enhance the precedence effect. The problem was that material played back in the presence of these strong reflections "sounded better" than the original. That is not the goal. We want our monitoring environment to reveal flaws and inaccuracies in our micing techniques, recordings, and mixing choices.

To get to an accurate listening environment, the short reflected energy must be sufficiently controlled enough to remove the effects of combining it with the direct signal and convoluting the listeners experience. The part of how much ambience and at what delayed interval energy is reintroduced into the listening position is probably more a matter of taste and experience. “

We need distuingish between what is accuracy and what personal pleasing. The first is something we can study and find objective results for to a large degree. But for the latter, it will depend one several aspects as already discussed. I might come back to this later as well, but this post is getting too long now!
 
I found this article by Ethan Winer quite good on the subject - https://ethanwiner.com/early_reflections.htm

Personally, I think a lot of preference here will come down to what the listener expects. If they listen to rock/pop/electronic music then they may want to get the impression of a performance in their listening room - in which case early side reflections may be beneficial since they "integrate" the spatial cues from the recording with the acoustic of the room. If they listen to classical music, especially orchestral recordings, they may want to get as good an impression of the space the performance happened in as possible. In that case I think side reflections (room reflections generally for that matter) are detrimental. From experience, when using my small Genelec monitors to listen nearfield, I find it much easier to place instruments in the orchestra compared to my main speakers (decent placement, decently sized but too reverbant room) and this generally helps in understanding the music.
It's the opposite really. In the recording and production of rock pop and electronic music, the mix engineer is adding multiple delays and reverbs to create an artificial space. they would have created this mix in a studio control room which it is not adding room tone to what the engineer is hearing especially when working in the near field.
 
You can argue opinions all day and night but in the end no one is really satisfied, and few if any have gathered what they believe is truly "useful information". [But maybe what you've really got is a pastime.]

There is a point to using psychoacoustics lab methods to discover the underlying mechanisms and performance of the human hearing system, but to try to extend those practices to justify or even understand pure opinion is, in my experience, generally a waste of time--sort of like arguing politics. If your intent is only to find groupings of opinions, then the exercise ceases to be "scientific" (i.e., the name of this forum) and then becomes business practice and marketing research.

The only really useful discussion worth its salt is--fidelity. That is something you can hang your hat on.

YMMV.

Chris
 
In my own experience I made the biggest upgrade in sound reproduction by using lots of absorption on side walls, corners and ceiling. The sound is more focused and I hear the “room in the recording” much better (if present).
 
So what do you call the distant point at which reflections overwhelm direct arrivals from the loudspeaker in home hi-fi listening rooms?

For clarity, I keep the terms "LLD" and "Critical Distance" separate. I gave the definitions earlier in this thread. What you are referring to is what I would call "further than the critical distance". One is a psychoacoustic definition, the other is an acoustic definition.

To make things even more confusing, there is a third "Critical Distance", i.e. the transition between Fresnel and Fraunhofer radiation from drivers. We are not referring to that here. Nor did I see any sign of AI confusing that with what we are discussing, either. Fortunately :)

How do you EQ a loudspeaker that has unequal directivity, and where do you place such loudspeakers to get "translation"?

JJ has already answered that question - you equalize for the direct sound because that is what you hear most of.

FWIW I am not sure whether SPDI or ERDI is a more accurate reflection (sorry) of what we hear. I am leaning towards SPDI.
 
Wait are you...
For clarity, I keep the terms "LLD" and "Critical Distance" separate. I gave the definitions earlier in this thread. What you are referring to is what I would call "further than the critical distance". One is a psychoacoustic definition, the other is an acoustic definition.

To make things even more confusing, there is a third "Critical Distance", i.e. the transition between Fresnel and Fraunhofer radiation from drivers. We are not referring to that here. Nor did I see any sign of AI confusing that with what we are discussing, either. Fortunately :)



JJ has already answered that question - you equalize for the direct sound because that is what you hear most of.

FWIW I am not sure whether SPDI or ERDI is a more accurate reflection (sorry) of what we hear. I am leaning towards SPDI.

arguing against the importance of off axis response now while discussing reflections?
 
"The LLD Shift: When a listener moves beyond the critical distance, the ratio of direct-to-reverberant sound drops below a certain threshold (where the brain's localization breaks down). Suddenly, individual instruments or voices lose their spatial separation and dissolve into a muddy, washed-out acoustic field."
Which many listeners may prefer: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cert-hall-acoustics-links-and-excerpts.51487/
This part is wrong. The LLD is much closer than the acoustic Critical Distance. Loss of phase coherence disappears maybe 5-10 seats away. The Critical Distance in a concert hall is way further than that. I stopped reading after that, I skimmed it.
I'm not sure about that. https://www.akutek.info/Mitt Biblio...ustics Hamburg 2018/Additional/papers/p35.pdf: “In Boston symphony hall the critical distance, where the D/R is one, is only about 17 feet from an omnidirectional source. On the floor the best seats can be forty to fifty feet from the stage, and the great seats in the front of the first balcony are more than 110 feet from the stage."
 
FWIW I am not sure whether SPDI or ERDI is a more accurate reflection (sorry) of what we hear. I am leaning towards SPDI.
FWIW. Dr Toole said ERDI is more important.
You are right, I should have said "most loudspeakers are omnidirectional at low frequencies". Cardioids are different of course, but there are not many of them in the marketplace. The ones I am aware of revert to the directivity of conventional cone/dome systems at mid to high frequencies: e.g. the excellent Dutch and Dutch. The directivity in the spinorama that most matters is the "early reflections DI" as it pertains to the second loudest sounds arriving at the listener's ears. The differences I see in the spinoramas are pretty small in the mid/high frequency range. There are numerous examples in slide show 6 in the 4th edition website and several in my Toronto AES lecture on YouTube. I'm sure you have been browsing them yourself, so perhaps you can provide some measurements - polar plots are not very useful.
Line sources tend to have wide horizontal dispersion, radiating a cylindrical wavefront if they are true floor-to-ceiling line sources. Truncated lines can be messy. The "line source" with a useful difference is the CBT (constant beamwidth transducer), and that sometimes seems to defy physics. It is described in my books and in AES papers. In some modes it constructively utilizes a boundary reflection.
 
While this thread is perhaps a step up from the other thread, the title proposes the wrong question imo.

Most listeners are going to have side wall reflections. Sure, some may treat the walls, but is a fringe solution. Rather than banter about who or what past research is right or wrong, I would like to see us frame the current problem and discuss solutions that could delight enthusiasts and the greater public alike.

Surround technologies seem to be the current state of the art, but more speakers are yet another niche solution. How about VR? Would like to hear from some members that are exploring more leading-edge solutions! Do we need another thread?
 
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FWIW. Dr Toole said ERDI is more important.
I understand. That's unfortunate. Use of reflections as the basis of corrections and performance measures is by definition "non-minimum-phase"--and immediately gives up on the possibility of full-range directivity control.

For those that may be swimming in acronyms:

SPDI = sound power directivity index
ERDI = early reflections directivity index

Toole lists these two curves in the following figure (1st Ed., pg. 377):

1781186900214.png


I spend a bit more time trying to actually improve on the loudspeaker's full-range directivity control...and instead use normalized directivity sonograms (horizontal, vertical) instead of the type of plots shown just above.

Chris
 
While this thread is perhaps a step up from the other thread, the title proposes the wrong question imo. Most listeners are going to have side wall reflections. Sure, some may treat the walls, but is a fringe solution. Rather than banter about who or what past research is right or wrong, I would like to see us frame the current problem and discuss solutions that we could delight enthusiasts and the greater public alike.

The thread is a response. It aims to clarify the research that's often referenced in other topics, but where there is disagreement on if and where it applies. As such it has value I believe, you can see how the topic raises questions from the start, but the title maybe doesn't reflect the scope or objective very well.
 
While this thread is perhaps a step up from the other thread, the title proposes the wrong question imo.
I do not understand.
It may be disadvantageous that the first post delves into a paper that has little to do with the question and investigates the performance of audio professionals in not so clear circumstances instead.

However, in my view the title poses EXACTLY the right question.
If we WANT side reflections the solution would look very different to the case if we do NOT WANT them.

Maybe side reflections are not important at all, or it might be a matter of taste whether we want them, or of the music we are playing, or how many channels are playing, or ......
But as nothing of this is clear, side reflections seem to be a valid question, in particular as almost everybody has to deal with them from the start.

How about VR?
My present approach is just that. I seem to not like side reflections (listening room) for the kind of music I listen to (classical) and I use binauralisation in a (rather big) virtual room to get there. But this is a niche solution, too.
 
In my own experience I made the biggest upgrade in sound reproduction by using lots of absorption on side walls, corners and ceiling. The sound is more focused and I hear the “room in the recording” much better (if present).
But what makes you so certain your impression would hold up in a blind test? It seems the same as someone who spends a lot of money on upgrading their speakers and saying the new ones are better, even if they are objectively worse.
 
How do you EQ a loudspeaker that has unequal directivity
You don't, and you can't. Directivity is a 3D unliear problem , and any EQ can only fix linear 2D problems. Just look at any spinorama on this site... it's very obvious and clear, when you see it, you'll never unsee it again ;)
Directivity is very much locked down by the shape/design of drivers and the cabinet. You can maybe lower the cross over frequency between tweeter and midrange to move into more linear territory, but that heavily relies on the capabilities of the drivers in question.
 
I do not understand.
It may be disadvantageous that the first post delves into a paper that has little to do with the question and investigates the performance of audio professionals in not so clear circumstances instead.

However, in my view the title poses EXACTLY the right question.
If we WANT side reflections the solution would look very different to the case if we do NOT WANT them.

If it works for you, carry on...

I was pondering the larger question and as stated, look at side reflection as more of an independent variable and then is a matter of how significant as part of a much more complex problem. To be clear, was not questioning this thread's existence (but maybe its value from a broader market perspective :)).
 
In my own experience I made the biggest upgrade in sound reproduction by using lots of absorption on side walls, corners and ceiling. The sound is more focused and I hear the “room in the recording” much better (if present).
This. Recording spaces can be relatively live or quite dead. The production of the record may have natural room tone or it has been artificially applied with reverb and delays. The mix engineer is able to achieve this because the control room is usually very quiet. Couple this with near field monitoring options, and the engineer is able to hear the amount of death that is present in the recording or they are applying to elements in a mix.

For the HiFi enthusiast in a domestic room, they are going to struggle to hear this when they're not listening in the near field in untreated space. Many Hi fi enthusiasts are listening in the midfield or farfield in relatively small rooms with no treatment. It doesn't matter how much you spend on the speakers and amplifiers, you're not going to hear the depth, without some serious consideration to treatment and the listening position. That depth created during the production process is masked by the listener's room.
 
JJ has already answered that question - you equalize for the direct sound because that is what you hear most of.
'Most of'... that's the compromise, right there ;) I've tried anything - at least it feels like it - and KEF coaxials with smooth on and off axis responses, is so far the only speaker I truly relax listening to. I know I'm biased - I know - but I preferred good directivity, even before I knew what it was, which I kinda proved to myself, when looking back with newly acquired knowledge, analysing data from speakers I've listened to in the past, and continually preferred.
 
Most listeners are going to have side wall reflections.

Agreed.

Sure, some may treat the walls, but is a fringe solution.

Hmmm. While treating the sidewalls is not the ONLY "solution" it's probably the most common one, and imo can be a two-edged sword. The other solutions are arguably even more "fringe".

Rather than banter about who or what past research is right or wrong

Okay

I would like to see us frame the current problem and discuss solutions that we could delight enthusiasts and the greater public alike.

At the risk of oversimplifying, imo strong early same-side-wall reflections tend to have this set of characteristics: They extend the soundstage laterally beyond the speakers and they give a good sense of spaciousness; however the same psychoacoustic mechanism that results in the increased soundstage width can blur the precision of sound images, and the sense of space is linked to the playback room's dimensions. My understanding is that most listeners find the benefits of strong early same-side-wall reflections to outweigh the drawbacks.

There is another, more elusive type of spatial presentation which some aspire to, and we might call it "you are there". With a "you are there" presentation, the sense of space is dominated by the recording rather than the playback room, and changes (often dramatically) from one recording to the next.

Unfortunately, those same strong, early same-side wall reflections which expand the soundstage width beyond the speakers also tend to preclude the set of attributes that results in a "you are there" presentation. So, it's a trade-off.

By far the simplest approach, and one which many if not most might actually prefer, is to "do nothing" about the first same-side-wall reflection. Beyond that, it starts to get complicated. Possible solutions include absorption; diffusion; sidewall geometry (to manipulate the reflections); radiation pattern control; and of course combinations thereof. I can go into detail if you'd like, with the caveat that I'm not an unbiased observer.
 
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