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Do We Want All Speakers To Sound The Same ?

Holmz

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I have not read all the posts, but I suspect that the low end is most likely coming towards the legacy upper end in terms of sound.
If I can have a speaker that is closer to perfect in terms of distortion, compression, and impulse and step response, then certainly I would like that.
If it is also lower cost I would like that too, and if I could do in a range of sizes to find the room decor, then even better.

We still have the radiation pattern to add some spice to whether they may be better in a lively or dead room.
And we still have the reality of compromises of size and bass extension.

I mean why would I not want all speakers to be getting technically more towards correct?
And as they get there, they should be sounding more similar than dissimilar.

If nothing else it keeps the quantity of speakers thrown into the trash minimised.
 

YSC

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Ok, back a bit more square on the nose to the OP subject:

So let's say we want speakers to generally converge in performance and hence sound. If we want to allow any variation in the sound...what would be left over to desire?

I think the most obvious would simply be options for different sizes of speaker - both for whatever fits our environment, or for the scale of the sound we want to experience.

But aside from that, what else? "Basically neutral but variations should be allowed for...?....."

Dispersion characteristics, e.g. narrow to wide?

Anything else.?
I think mainly dispersion, and unless it's coaxial, the vertical dispersion will contribute more to the sound than minor distortion etc.

I would personally say the dispersion, physical size and SPL with bass extension.
 

goat76

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You seems mistook my point, by acoustically coloured I mean the recording he made in his room is not transparent to the sound of the instrument in that room where he and the mic are in.

It’s simple as that: when you find the recording and playback don’t sound like the same, either it’s the speaker being not faithful to the recordings or the recording isn’t faithful of what it is recording, usually it’s both, give or take

I think I did understand what you tried to say, I just pointed out that "acoustically colored" wasn't quite the right way if you wanted to say it's the microphone and/or the following gear that was coloring the recording "the wrong way", making it sound less faithful to the original sound of the instrument in the room.

But that aside, it's somewhat of a long-shot explanation if the speaker happens to have exactly the "right faults" to make the not-so-faithful recording sound faithful on just those speakers, but at the same time everything else he listens to also sounded better and closer to the reality on the same speakers.
 

YSC

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I think I did understand what you tried to say, I just pointed out that "acoustically colored" wasn't quite the right way if you wanted to say it's the microphone and/or the following gear that was coloring the recording "the wrong way", making it sound less faithful to the original sound of the instrument in the room.

But that aside, it's somewhat of a long-shot explanation if the speaker happens to have exactly the "right faults" to make the not-so-faithful recording sound faithful on just those speakers, but at the same time everything else he listens to also sounded better and closer to the reality on the same speakers.
I am actually not saying it must be such case, but merely pointing out that the recording in room of him playing the instrument which is really close to him, while the mic itself is of some distance from him, and then playback in a stereo in itself creates quite some variables to start of as a neutral reference. complicated by human perception it can have a ton of possibility of differences in speaker "characters" to result in one's subjective impression, and somehow IME (which, can be biased havily also), the spatial clues from reflections affects more to our perception of "lively" or not, my best, sounding like "I am really there" was from binaural recordings, playing back sound effects and concerts with headphones, which, with both hifiman HE500 and UERR in ear having vastly different FR and tonal balance, yet both, when listening alone, sounded "it's there", which I guess could be the dummy head capturing the reflection cues of environment and played back with the delays in reflections via the headphones, could be more likely the case.

going to stereo it would introduce too much of a variable in room, maybe the room+speaker interation creates better reflection cues or maybe not, it's fine for him to get his final choice of speaker but then, it is no more accurate/better than something with a different reflection spatial character
 
OP
MattHooper

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I am actually not saying it must be such case, but merely pointing out that the recording in room of him playing the instrument which is really close to him, while the mic itself is of some distance from him, and then playback in a stereo in itself creates quite some variables to start of as a neutral reference. complicated by human perception it can have a ton of possibility of differences in speaker "characters" to result in one's subjective impression, and somehow IME (which, can be biased havily also), the spatial clues from reflections affects more to our perception of "lively" or not, my best, sounding like "I am really there" was from binaural recordings, playing back sound effects and concerts with headphones, which, with both hifiman HE500 and UERR in ear having vastly different FR and tonal balance, yet both, when listening alone, sounded "it's there", which I guess could be the dummy head capturing the reflection cues of environment and played back with the delays in reflections via the headphones, could be more likely the case.

going to stereo it would introduce too much of a variable in room, maybe the room+speaker interation creates better reflection cues or maybe not, it's fine for him to get his final choice of speaker but then, it is no more accurate/better than something with a different reflection spatial character

Just a note on that: I didn't feel the need to use a perfect recording (didn't bother to go in to the studio, recorded them at home) because ultimately most music tracks are far from neutral/perfect recordings. I was looking for a general "overall impression" so a decent recording would do. This mostly arose because I am very sensitive to tone/timbre in terms of what I enjoy in a "higher end" sound system. Starting in the 90's I'd auditioned a gazillion speakers and most sounded off to me in one way or another, like the timbral colors were not matching the ones I carried around in my head - for instance that "warm woody sparkly glow" I perceive from the typical acoustic guitar. On only a few speakers the sound seemed to "click in" to "yes, that sounds right!"

I started to wonder if my memory was just idiosyncratic and untrustworthy in that regard. So I made the recordings and used them to do comparisons with the live sound sources with various speakers I had through my home. And, indeed, the speakers that sounded "right" to my ear previous to doing the comparisons were the ones that survived these comparisons best and sounded more "right" compared to the real thing. Not a scientific study, I'd just close my eyes and listen, but it was good enough for my purposes. I was only trying to please my own perception.

My view is that even the most neutral sounding systems I've heard sound colored, relative to my impressions of "the real thing." If I'm in a drum shop, tapping on all sorts of different cymbals there is this rich range of harmonics and timbral color, of constant "surprise" as it were. But on speaker systems, once I've heard a few tracks with drum cymbals, say some jazz or whatever, the surprise is gone. The system will play cymbals with the "same timbral color" - and I generally know what cymbals will sound like through that system, from then on. IF my perception regarding this is correct, I don't know if this is a limitation with most sound reproduction, or whether (most likely) it's just recordings tend to involve so much coloration/addition/subtraction along the way, the chances of hearing the richness and reality of the real thing, even on a neutral system, are very low. Even the average not-very-good acoustic guitar played in real life tends to have significantly more richness and sonic interest for me than a "better sounding/more expensive" acoustic guitar on a recording through a sound system.

That's why, for me, it's a bit of a "pick your coloration" thing. Relative to the real thing, colored systems have their color, neutral systems sound colored too. So what I seek is any system that at least reminds me of the real thing. And some systems seem to reproduce a sort of timbral warmth that, whether it's a coloration or not, makes more instruments and voices sound more "right" to my ears, than others.

That's my personal answer for "why would anyone want any coloration in their sound system?" It's because I find all sound systems "colored" relative to what I seek. I'm not "seeking coloration/distortion" per se. I'm just going with whatever happens to sound "more right" to my ears, and IF it involves a bit of coloration, I'm ok with that.
 

Thomas_A

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In theory, one could imagine two kinds of speaker setups:

1. A speaker setup that sounds similar to the speaker setup of a specific studio (e.g. main monitors or desk monitors).
2. A speaker setup that sounds similar the live event, e.g. sitting in front of the musicians at the recording event.

I know both are "impossible" , but is there a difference in the speaker characteristics if you want to be closer to one or the other? Dispersion? How detailed is the imaging of a live band or orchestra?
 

tomtoo

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In theory, one could imagine two kinds of speaker setups:

1. A speaker setup that sounds similar to the speaker setup of a specific studio (e.g. main monitors or desk monitors).
2. A speaker setup that sounds similar the live event, e.g. sitting in front of the musicians at the recording event.

I know both are "impossible" , but is there a difference in the speaker characteristics if you want to be closer to one or the other? Dispersion? How detailed is the imaging of a live band or orchestra?

You gave your self the answer. Number 2 is completly impossible with stereo.
Number 1 you can come close, if you realy think you need.
 

Thomas_A

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You gave your self the answer. Number 2 is completly impossible with stereo.
Number 1 you can come close, if you realy think you need.
I would say number one is close to impossible as well. You would need to know the on-axis and at LP response of the specific studio to come close. And if you get "pinpoint imaging", is that really what is commonly heard live? I have read many commentaries from people that this is rarely the case. It depends on many things, listening distance, listening venue. What if I am sitting in a lounge at the concert?
 

tomtoo

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I would say number one is close to impossible as well. You would need to know the on-axis and at LP response of the specific studio to come close. And if you get "pinpoint imaging", is that really what is commonly heard live? I have read many commentaries from people that this is rarely the case. It depends on many things, listening distance, listening venue. What if I am sitting in a lounge at the concert?

Like i said you never will get the sound from 5 people playing in your room, no way.
In theory you can come close to what a mixing person can hear on his stereo monitors. Thats it. The rest is fairy tales.
There is no reality in a stereo system, what not means you cant have fun with it.
 

Thomas_A

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Like i said you never will get the sound from 5 people playing in your room, no way.
In theory you can come close to what a mixing person can hear on his stereo monitors. Thats it. The rest is fairy tales.
There is no reality in a stereo system, what not means you cant have fun with it.
I am aware of the flaws of stereo; however, some cues such as distance and room perception is related to the direct to reverbant ratio (DRR). What you can "play with" is DRR to get an illusion of a psychoacoustic larger distance to the source and increased room size, which may be apply closer approximation to the live event than the studio. I do not have any good references to small-room reproduction with speakers and DRR though. Other than adding reflections with multichannel.
 

tomtoo

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I am aware of the flaws of stereo; however, some cues such as distance and room perception is related to the direct to reverbant ratio (DRR). What you can "play with" is DRR to get an illusion of a psychoacoustic larger distance to the source and increased room size, which may be apply closer approximation to the live event than the studio. I do not have any good references to small-room reproduction with speakers and DRR though. Other than adding reflections with multichannel.

What ever you do, you will always mix up the recording room with your room. So there is no way to get the original. Come close what ever that means for you. Its all fake, take the fake you like most.

Let me add. Lets imagine 4 girls that play recorder in your room. Will it sound different than a recording from it played over stereo? Oh, yes. You have to be completly sound incompetent to hear not a (a huge)difference. Thats it.
 
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Thomas_A

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What ever you do, you will always mix up the recording room with your room. So there is no way to get the original. Come close what ever that means for you. Its all fake, take the fake you like most.

Let me add. Lets imagine 4 girls that play recorder in your room. Will it sound different than a recording from it played over stereo? Oh, yes. You have to be completly sound incompetent to hear not a (a huge)difference. Thats it
Yes, of course there will be differences. And I will mix it up with my room, but my model is that my room is a lounge to the event. So my room needs to be in the model and add reflections. The only thing is that the front wall should be acoustically invisible. And still, the question is whether lower DRR is important to get the illusion of distance in a small room.
event.png
 

olegtern

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Yes, of course there will be differences. And I will mix it up with my room, but my model is that my room is a lounge to the event. So my room needs to be in the model and add reflections. The only thing is that the front wall should be acoustically invisible. And still, the question is whether lower DRR is important to get the illusion of distance in a small room.

But in real life in small/medium you'll get something like this:
1669931553866.png

In studio "dead" room vs LEDE:
1669931934953.png
 

Thomas_A

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RayDunzl

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"Do We Want All Speakers To Sound The Same ?"

No, I want to pick my own volume level.
 

kemmler3D

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even the most neutral sounding systems I've heard sound colored, relative to my impressions of "the real thing."
I would guess this is because the dispersion pattern of real instruments are idiosyncratic and generally very asymmetrical. The pickup patterns of microphones have nothing in particular to do with the instruments themselves, and then the dispersion patterns of speakers are symmetrical AT BEST. As such there's no way to get the same interaction with the room from a recording of an instrument as there is with the instrument itself.

I guess a "really real" sounding guitar from a speaker must have some interesting, magical FR and dispersion characteristics (that aren't necessarily flat / even) that end up reminding you of a real guitar. A truly neutral speaker will sound like a good recording of a guitar, not a guitar.
 

olegtern

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And that is why I wonder about the effects of DRR and also , heavy toe in as well. It would affect distance perception or no?
I think the Haas effect explains the main effect on distance perception in rooms.

Perhaps you will also find this interesting:

 

YSC

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Just a note on that: I didn't feel the need to use a perfect recording (didn't bother to go in to the studio, recorded them at home) because ultimately most music tracks are far from neutral/perfect recordings. I was looking for a general "overall impression" so a decent recording would do. This mostly arose because I am very sensitive to tone/timbre in terms of what I enjoy in a "higher end" sound system. Starting in the 90's I'd auditioned a gazillion speakers and most sounded off to me in one way or another, like the timbral colors were not matching the ones I carried around in my head - for instance that "warm woody sparkly glow" I perceive from the typical acoustic guitar. On only a few speakers the sound seemed to "click in" to "yes, that sounds right!"

I started to wonder if my memory was just idiosyncratic and untrustworthy in that regard. So I made the recordings and used them to do comparisons with the live sound sources with various speakers I had through my home. And, indeed, the speakers that sounded "right" to my ear previous to doing the comparisons were the ones that survived these comparisons best and sounded more "right" compared to the real thing. Not a scientific study, I'd just close my eyes and listen, but it was good enough for my purposes. I was only trying to please my own perception.

My view is that even the most neutral sounding systems I've heard sound colored, relative to my impressions of "the real thing." If I'm in a drum shop, tapping on all sorts of different cymbals there is this rich range of harmonics and timbral color, of constant "surprise" as it were. But on speaker systems, once I've heard a few tracks with drum cymbals, say some jazz or whatever, the surprise is gone. The system will play cymbals with the "same timbral color" - and I generally know what cymbals will sound like through that system, from then on. IF my perception regarding this is correct, I don't know if this is a limitation with most sound reproduction, or whether (most likely) it's just recordings tend to involve so much coloration/addition/subtraction along the way, the chances of hearing the richness and reality of the real thing, even on a neutral system, are very low. Even the average not-very-good acoustic guitar played in real life tends to have significantly more richness and sonic interest for me than a "better sounding/more expensive" acoustic guitar on a recording through a sound system.

That's why, for me, it's a bit of a "pick your coloration" thing. Relative to the real thing, colored systems have their color, neutral systems sound colored too. So what I seek is any system that at least reminds me of the real thing. And some systems seem to reproduce a sort of timbral warmth that, whether it's a coloration or not, makes more instruments and voices sound more "right" to my ears, than others.

That's my personal answer for "why would anyone want any coloration in their sound system?" It's because I find all sound systems "colored" relative to what I seek. I'm not "seeking coloration/distortion" per se. I'm just going with whatever happens to sound "more right" to my ears, and IF it involves a bit of coloration, I'm ok with that.
That's perfectly fine, I would say if the coloration/distortion happens to make the whole thing sounds more real across the board, I would prefer that also, maybe if you, just saying, listen to drums or cymbals mostly then when a certain speaker can add that whatever it is to the recording make it works for you, it's a perfectly fine thing, even saying if when I am old and have deteriorated HF hearing, prefering a massive HF boost can be a fine choice also.

It's in the end the "pick your coloration" thing, only say some of us here prefer to taken out as much coloration in the line as possible and leave the coloration to the room, the studio mixing engineer etc. to do the job. and that's also why I prefer a neutral speaker with well controlled directivity - to make EQ more effective switching genres, at least making it able to tune the tone curve without weird off axis reflections. It's impossible to take out colouration in all the production chain but at least, maybe taken out more variables would end up with a more adaptive system

I also somehow happen to found those immersive recording, or even say VR type sound effects sounds better in these systems, maybe it's a tech thing evolving around those more neutral speakers and not traditional Hifi.
 

Thomas_A

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I think the Haas effect explains the main effect on distance perception in rooms.

Perhaps you will also find this interesting:

Thanks,

DRR is important but I have found quite few articles for stereo reproduction. First there is the DRR/reverbant energy in the recording itself, but that is something specific for the recording. To optimize the illusion of speakers, there are a number of factors of course, and some speculations from me below.

- Frequency response is one (including also peaks and dips occurring due to the stereo errors; Shirley et al). One should avoid peaks in the HF region revealing speaker "position" and a generally darker character is perceived to be more far away. Those "tweeters" can often reveal our speakers...
- DRR as noted, where cues to reveal speaker distance due to reflection is one (reflections from floor and side-walls). What is the effect of e.g. heavy toe-in when reflections increase from the opposite wall in terms of distance perception of a phantom source /in stereo/? Does it add to confuse our brains with respect to distance to speakers? Would be great with some papers that deal with stereo (and not only single sound sources).
-Level; weaker levels are perceived more distant.


All of the above may contribute to that not all speakers should sound the same, depending on what your preferences are.
 
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