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Do We Want All Speakers To Sound The Same ?

Purité Audio

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I saw this quote the other day which made me smile and neatly summarises Matt’s and many other mature listeners position,

‘Having tried vinyl, I find that the tone is very realistic sounding. Almost like real instruments playing in the room. It would be lovely if digital could sound the same. Are there any dac's that can sound tonally accurate. Thanks’

Keith
 

Killingbeans

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Before I left I actually listened to a big pair of Martin Logan hybrid speakers in the same store. I'm not the biggest ML fan, but I played some of the same tracks and...boom!...the timbre had that more realistic airiness and the timbral "color" warmed up more towards what I look for. I'm sure the ML don't measure as flat as the Kiis. (I think ML tends to have a bit of upper mid emphasis if I remember).

Any chance that the Kiis could become equally loveable with a bit of EQ applied?
 

Plcamp

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Regarding speakers sounding the same, it would help me if someone could answer this…

If I have two sealed bass cabinets, one of which achieves a qts of 0.76 (very large cabinet) and the next at 0.9 (large but manageable).

Q1: would I easily hear the difference?
Q2: If yes to q1, would eq be able to remove the difference heard?

Modeling the two does show slight (about 1 db) peaking before rolloff for 0.9 version, but it is slight.

What I am considering here is the use of 15” qtc = 0.7 drivers (that I currently have in open baffle) in a sealed cabinet, and the answer to this question help me figure out how small I can safely make the cabinets.

Qts at 0.9 still provides fast settling time, but I am confused about how far one can take this before significantly compromising bass quality?
 

Purité Audio

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Any chance that the Kiis could become equally loveable with a bit of EQ applied?
They have neat tone controls and parametric EQ built in, you can adjust the bass output, but sadly you can’t add ‘legacy loudspeaker design levels of distortion’ perhaps in the next firmware update.
Keith
 
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MattHooper

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I saw this quote the other day which made me smile and neatly summarises Matt’s and many other mature listeners position,

‘Having tried vinyl, I find that the tone is very realistic sounding. Almost like real instruments playing in the room. It would be lovely if digital could sound the same. Are there any dac's that can sound tonally accurate. Thanks’

Keith

Ha! I've certainly spouted enough about my enjoying vinyl that I'll take that jab :)

(Presuming you understand it's ultimately inaccurate....what sounds "more realistic" to me isn't dependant on the medium, but typically on the recording. I've often said I can hear more tonal accuracy in digital versions of albums. I was listening to only my digital sources last night and was utterly blown away by some of the realistic characteristics of the sound. Digital signals have been my main source since the 80's, and the vast majority of demos for guests to get that "you are there" feeling has been with digital sources. Further, I work in digital sound all day long and not fo a split second want to be dealing with vinyl distortions in my work).
 

Purité Audio

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Yes the point I was trying to make wasn’t vinyl specific, but equally applicable to loudspeakers in that if you have grown up with coloured sound then it make take some time ( or perhaps never ) to become accustomed to transparent reproduction.
If digital had been invented and then someone came along with vinyl…
‘Are there any dac's that can sound tonally accurate.’
I might make that my signature.
Keith
 
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MattHooper

MattHooper

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Any chance that the Kiis could become equally loveable with a bit of EQ applied?

Yeah, definitely the right question. I don't know. I suspect that could be the case. I didn't like everything better about the Martin Logan speakers. I missed some of the sense of accuracy and precision from the Kii speakers. But there was a slight shift of timbre in the ML that I liked. The question is whether that was purely due to a frequency response deviation, or some other additional factors (like dispersion/interaction with room/some other distortion characteristics?)
So I don't know.

I can say that I had a digital parametric EQ in my system for many years and when I had speakers in that didn't sound quite "right" in timbral terms, even trying to EQ them didn't get them to sound enough like the speakers I liked, to work for me.
 

ahofer

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I've really never once thought LPs sounded more real on classical music or jazz. Live rock sounds like crap, so LP is often an improvement.
 
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MattHooper

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Yes the point I was trying to make wasn’t vinyl specific, but equally applicable to loudspeakers in that if you have grown up with coloured sound then it make take some time ( or perhaps never ) to become accustomed to transparent reproduction.
If digital had been invented and then someone came along with vinyl…
‘Are there any dac's that can sound tonally accurate.’
I might make that my signature.
Keith

Yes I agree. That certainly can be a factor.

(Though I have had many different speakers, some less neutral, others more neutral, and it's not like I'm unfamiliar with neutral sound. Further, even in the Kii I felt there were aspects of the sound that were "closer to real" than on the ML speakers, e.g. the solidity and presence of the sound. Piano for instance sounded more solid, like the keys were striking a solid wood body. On the ML speakers the piano sounded more lightweight, like the keys were more floating in air not attached to a vibrating sounding board. When using the real thing as a standard - in this case memory - there's often compromises, one speaker may do X, Y, Z more like the real thing, the other may do A and B more like the real thing...in my experience. If we are just talking reproducing the signal with accuracy, the Kii wins hands down).
 
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MattHooper

MattHooper

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Loudspeakers are transducers.
Keith

That tend to sound different from one another.

That’s the only reason why people here care about how a speaker measures.
 

YSC

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Yeah, definitely the right question. I don't know. I suspect that could be the case. I didn't like everything better about the Martin Logan speakers. I missed some of the sense of accuracy and precision from the Kii speakers. But there was a slight shift of timbre in the ML that I liked. The question is whether that was purely due to a frequency response deviation, or some other additional factors (like dispersion/interaction with room/some other distortion characteristics?)
So I don't know.

I can say that I had a digital parametric EQ in my system for many years and when I had speakers in that didn't sound quite "right" in timbral terms, even trying to EQ them didn't get them to sound enough like the speakers I liked, to work for me.
actually I personally believe it's more similar to "chasing the ghost" in these, we basically have no way to accurately determine if it's psychological factor dictating those preference for view, sighted. Say one have initial impression of the more accurate one doesn't have something sounding right, or more "real" in the test track,
It can be:
1) the record itself is dificient for the mix, say, clipping, uneven tonal balance in mixing
2) the room interaction
3) mental impression of "how this recording should sound" from the old, used to equipment
4) other psycholigical effects
5) some magic parameters not measurable
6) some measurable difference which is not easy to read in the spin data.

thing is, just maybe, if we have a room showing you an illution of using the ML speakers but actually it's the Kii is playing, you might feel it sounded different. I once did a small trick, much like those youtube A vs B demo tests, where I put the graphics to be two different speakers, and let audiophile friends have some "critical listen and impression", where most of them picked out various differences, but in reality, it is, just playing the raw music from the headphone used, nothing changed except the image. psychology is tricky thing for me at least, when you want to tune A into something similar to B where you used to like, just by knowing you are hunting for the difference, you almost certainly can find "the difference" another thing is just like car modding, when ppl mod it with bigger wheels, stiffer suspension, huge spoiler etc. in short tests, one almost always find it handles better, and can "go faster", but then in a track lap, with same tyres (same model, not size), more often than not, a sporty sedan with everything stock factory setting can actually have higher stability and go around quicker.

One observation is the "golden ear" camp, I think most of you have experienced something like calling in friends using more consumer brands of audio equipment for comparison of your new toy vs old toy, they more often cannot discern the difference between good speaker A vs good speaker B, but almost everytime when you go for a specific target speaker in shops or homes, you can find the differences.

I would say it's the difference between really enjoying the music or digging at the differences between gears played quite an important or even dominant role, when you try to tune for "that magic sound I loved", and once being skeptic "if this eq could truely make it?", I bet 9 out of 10 times you would find the thing "that's just off", or the analog camp which swear about old printed vinyl which is "magical" for any record they buy after feeling they like the record from streaming without knowing that the magic vinyl was just printed out of the digital source

That aside it could be those magic, more hidden parameters like transient response or minor resonance could contribute to the impressions, but when I am asked, I would just trust the scientific data for being more true to the source as possible, with a trusted house curve dialed in the bass, and then enjoy the music all along, I maybe fooling myself on these believes with the mental picture, but hey, it's much easier to achieve the audio heaven at much cheaper cost isn't it? even if say, when my genelecs breaks or I need something new, I can have a wider option list on my radar for "good enough" not only for sound, but for WAF, size and money.
 
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MattHooper

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actually I personally believe it's more similar to "chasing the ghost" in these, we basically have no way to accurately determine if it's psychological factor dictating those preference for view, sighted.

I agree with much of what you wrote, which I think get to all the right questions. Lacking the ability to do personal blind test shoot outs, we are stuck hashing these things out mostly for ourselves and that will depend on an individuals taste or criteria. One could say "The bind testing has already been done for you! Much of the blind testing research cited here points to speaker design and target curves most rate as sounding the best. Just go by that!" Which is what plenty do.
But while it clearly works for some, it doesn't seem to quite work for me, for the conditions in which I listen. It's just the case for me that while I love sitting down to listen to all sorts of different gear, it is very rare that I feel I would want to own the gear I'm listening to. My friend, an audio reviewer, is much more adaptable.
He can sit and truly enjoy all sorts of systems, whereas I can listen to the same system and just want to go do something else after 10 minutes. Some speakers grab me with an "OMG I want to keep listening and listening to music, I can't leave the listening seat"...where many if not most do not. I think I've somewhat identified over the years what type of characteristics have this effect on me. I can try to describe why the Kii system impressed me in an intellectual way, but didn't grab me as wanting to own it, whereas my system makes me want to listen for hours (my speakers aren't abominations of coloration btw - they are fairly neutral). But it's not through impractical rigorous testing or anything. As you say, it's tough to untangle all the variables.
 
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MarkS

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That tend to sound different from one another.

That’s the only reason why people here care about how a speaker measures.
I dunno, most people here seem to care a lot about how electronics measure, even though the differences are inaudible in almsot all cases.
 

sonitus mirus

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I dunno, most people here seem to care a lot about how electronics measure, even though the differences are inaudible in almsot all cases.
I care a lot about how the electronics measure as this indicates in almost all cases if any differences might be audible.
 

YSC

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I care a lot about how the electronics measure as this indicates in almost all cases if any differences might be audible.
That should be to appreciate how good it can get, and avoid extra spending if need another new dac or amp
 
D

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Any chance that the Kiis could become equally loveable with a bit of EQ applied?
Probably. I find that a small 2 dB boost at 400 Hz with a Q from 200 - 800 Hz gives rock / guitars / drums a nicer bite and presence "live sound". But tends to not suit more electronical music that I also listen to. So the compromise is flat in that area.

Anyway, my take is that you can EQ more than you think. You just need to have a response from the speaker you like to imitate and experiment with curves.
 

YSC

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I agree with much of what you wrote, which I think get to all the right questions. Lacking the ability to do personal blind test shoot outs, we are stuck hashing these things out mostly for ourselves and that will depend on an individuals taste or criteria. One could say "The bind testing has already been done for you! Much of the blind testing research cited here points to speaker design and target curves most rate as sounding the best. Just go by that!" Which is what plenty do.
But while it clearly works for some, it doesn't seem to quite work for me, for the conditions in which I listen. It's just the case for me that while I love sitting down to listen to all sorts of different gear, it is very rare that I feel I would want to own the gear I'm listening to. My friend, an audio reviewer, is much more adaptable.
He can sit and truly enjoy all sorts of systems, whereas I can listen to the same system and just want to go do something else after 10 minutes. Some speakers grab me with an "OMG I want to keep listening and listening to music, I can't leave the listening seat"...where many if not most do not. I think I've somewhat identified over the years what type of characteristics have this effect on me. I can try to describe why the Kii system impressed me in an intellectual way, but didn't grab me as wanting to own it, whereas my system makes me want to listen for hours (my speakers aren't abominations of coloration btw - they are fairly neutral). But it's not through impractical rigorous testing or anything. As you say, it's tough to untangle all the variables.
I think I am closer to your reviewer friend. To me maybe I am not eyeing for the particular zing or whatever in some particular music, goal is for transparency to the source, so dum bother that much, and tbh I usually listen to music with fiction or web browsing, not sitting still with music alone, that habit might make more difference
 
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MattHooper

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I think I am closer to your reviewer friend. To me maybe I am not eyeing for the particular zing or whatever in some particular music, goal is for transparency to the source, so dum bother that much, and tbh I usually listen to music with fiction or web browsing, not sitting still with music alone, that habit might make more difference

Perhaps in comparing our two approaches. I have no doubt many here will, like me, just sit down in the sweet spot and zone out to the music. It's actually one of the reasons I spin vinyl: I can actually leave my phone and screens aside, in another room, and not be distracted by screens for some part of the day. (Whereas when using my digital source I need my phone/ipad in front of me as controller).

I don't need high end audio to enjoy music - I can swoon to my favorite music on my car stereo, smart speaker, even on my iphone's speakers.
For me a great stereo system is a "Music +" listening experience. It's music presented with luxurious sound quality. Sometimes I can zone in on the sheer sensuousness of the sound, often the music/great sound quality merges for sonic bliss. And, I'm sure I'm not alone, it encourages me to enjoy and appreciate a wider range of music than I might have without the system.
 

hex168

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Not much to contribute here but wanted to express appreciation to Matt Hooper for originating and facilitating a thoughtful thread.

Myself, I prefer a measured-neutral tonal balance but am open to and enjoy many different spacial presentations.
 
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