Do USB Audio Cables Make A Difference?

[chris719]

DACs and sources simply need to do a checksum cross reference to ensure that the data stream is bit perfect...it adds latency and overhead processing to the mix, but that's a small cost to pay. It is standard tech in computing, it is what my external drives, NAS, etc. do in order to ensure data integrity of files I transfer over the network, USB, etc..

I assure you, they do not need to do this at the session/application layer. There is no data corruption until it's obvious, even with isochronous transfers. All USB data packets have a CRC, so an error can be detected even with isochronous transfers, it's just that there is no retry or guarantee of delivery. Please, do some research before further adding to the confusion. Your external drives use this very CRC, the only difference is they operate via bulk transfers not isochronous, and so they will retransmit. There is no point to retransmitting audio packets/frames. If the link has degraded to the point you are getting audible errors, the only thing retries will do is delay the audio you do hear between pops and clicks. It may be that some USB devices don't do anything if the CRC is bad, but about the only useful thing they could do is light up an error LED.

The bottom line is that if you don't hear pops/clicks/dropouts, you don't have a data integrity issue.

 

[amirm]

Makes sense, but how can this be catch with an AP or another audio measurement device? Or better: how can we find such a poor USB cable to do the measurements?

I have done the measurements: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...view-and-measurements.1829/page-10#post-46635

Sometime later I also post what it sounds like in that thread.

 

[Gekel]

Did anyone try to explain this nonsense by looking at the data?

Lets assume there is an USB cable which really can e.g. enhance the bass of a DSD64 stream by applying the correct manipulations on bit level. How does this cable recognize if it is attached to a system which uses PCM, or DSD128? And what happens if I change the coding on my streamer?

In all cases this cable requires a different method for the calculations and also needs to change the bits which need to be switched.

Who is telling my cable what I am sending so it can adapt to this?


And did anyone ever try to simulate an audio capable USB device (e.g. with a raspy or something else) to simulate a DAC and the record the raw data stream to hard disk? This would eliminate possible errors on the analog side coming from the DAC.

 

[Wes]

Did anyone try to explain this nonsense by looking at the data?

Lets assume there is an USB cable which really can e.g. enhance the bass of a DSD64 stream by applying the correct manipulations on bit level. How does this cable recognize if it is attached to a system which uses PCM, or DSD128? And what happens if I change the coding on my streamer?

In all cases this cable requires a different method for the calculations and also needs to change the bits which need to be switched.

Who is telling my cable what I am sending so it can adapt to this?


And did anyone ever try to simulate an audio capable USB device (e.g. with a raspy or something else) to simulate a DAC and the record the raw data stream to hard disk? This would eliminate possible errors on the analog side coming from the DAC.

You need to by IntelliCables, available at a neurosciences lab near you.

 

[chris719]

Did anyone try to explain this nonsense by looking at the data?

Lets assume there is an USB cable which really can e.g. enhance the bass of a DSD64 stream by applying the correct manipulations on bit level. How does this cable recognize if it is attached to a system which uses PCM, or DSD128? And what happens if I change the coding on my streamer?

In all cases this cable requires a different method for the calculations and also needs to change the bits which need to be switched.

Who is telling my cable what I am sending so it can adapt to this?


And did anyone ever try to simulate an audio capable USB device (e.g. with a raspy or something else) to simulate a DAC and the record the raw data stream to hard disk? This would eliminate possible errors on the analog side coming from the DAC.

A simple USB protocol analyzer like the Total Phase Beagle 480 can do this easily. Will show you invalid CRCs, incomplete transactions, NAKs, etc. It's not free, though.

 

[Scienceguy]

Hi:
I agree with you THE only true litmus test is in the listening if not buy any USB cable you like why do a comparison? I'm curious do the members of the ASR listen to the speakers you're interested in before buying? Just a thought.
ScienceGuy.

 

[SIY]

Hi:
I agree with you THE only true litmus test is in the listening if not buy any USB cable you like why do a comparison? I'm curious do the members of the ASR listen to the speakers you're interested in before buying? Just a thought.
ScienceGuy.

Inapt Analogy of the Year, though admittedly it’s only May.

 

[Katji]

Do you mean you listen to USB cables before buying?


.
[...shees, not often that so many of the few emoticons would be suitable.]

 

[Sal1950]

Hi:
I agree with you THE only true litmus test is in the listening if not buy any USB cable you like why do a comparison? I'm curious do the members of the ASR listen to the speakers you're interested in before buying? Just a thought.
ScienceGuy.

When I bought my Klipsch La Scala's in 1978, sure, I had listened to tons of speakers before buying them. I lived in Chicago and there was a bunch of Hi-Fi stores within a stones throw. Also the HiFi world was a very different place back then. Much of the ported world hadn't really caught on to the Thiele/Small design parameters yet or how to use them to design good sounding speakers. The sound of that group in the bass range was all over the place and hadn't really become of age yet. Acoustic Suspension designs had become all the rage with HiFi enthusieasts being all ga-ga over their capability to produce deep bass from a relatively small box but required a ton of power to do it. Big power tube amps were expensive and scarce, and affordable solid state was just starting to come to life, like the Phame Linear 700s. Bottom line, I fell in love with my La Scala's and kept them for the next 32 years.

Along the way I became interested in surround sound which threw a wrench into the whole speaker issue, size, cost, etc became a much larger consideration for me and made choices much more difficult. I had a couple affairs with smaller stand mounts but with so many years involvement with high efficiency and detailed horns made me painfully aware of the dynamic shortcomings of the small speakers (+ subs, obviously).

Back at the October 2019 CEDIA show Harman/JBL introduced the new HDI line of speakers with their Synthesis-M2 bloodline being closely related. This immediately got my attention and based on the design parameters, measurements, etc; looked to be right up my alley as a (nearly) affordable option for a final long term replacement of the LaScala's. (Never in my wildest dreams did I ever figure I'd put out $10,000 for a set of loudspeakers, My LaScala's had been $500 each in 1978, LOL) While I sat around chewing my fingernails over the prospect, Amir got a pair in for measurement. They measured pretty much as I had hoped, so I extremely nervously ordered 4 3600's for the corners and a 4500 for the center.

A long story to answer your question but yea, I bought a set of super pricey (for me) speakers based on the measurements and design parameters without ever hearing them first.. How do they sound?, pretty much exactly how I expected them to, Thank God. But I do have a very high confidence level that the measurements can tell you an awful lot about the sound of loudspeakers.

As to USB cables, they'll sound 2 ways, bit perfect or nothing at all. Same for most other type of cables or modern electronics, the design elements are very mature and should either be totally transparent or offer up a sound signature which the engineer has decided to inject into the product. In today 2020+ world of engineering, there should be no surprises in the sound of a final product..
If you'd prefer to call me a flat-earther or a tone deaf moran, have at it. I've heard it all before.

 

[CuteStudio]

Hi:
I agree with you THE only true litmus test is in the listening if not buy any USB cable you like why do a comparison? I'm curious do the members of the ASR listen to the speakers you're interested in before buying? Just a thought.
ScienceGuy.

When I listen to a USB cable, I find they are all very very quiet.
I tend to listen to the music itself, when I feel like listening.
Listening is a subjective experience, so even real, quite big differences can be masked.

Amplifiers have sonic differences, speakers probably have the most differences of all.
But a digital 0 and a digital 1, have no sound.
Only analog has sound, and often, we don't hear any difference even then.

The HiFi crowd with their mystical cables seem to have forgotten the music. They even forget the mastering quality. Quite often a cable review in one of the many bogus, advertiser steered magazines contains CD tracks, that when you look on Audacity at the waveforms, are hideously squashed into neat little bricks. Try it sometime, it's quite eye opening.
Essentially their review is junk. Rubbish. Garbage in, Garbage out.

I remember at a HiFi show someone was demonstrating how great their crygenic cables were. he excitedly swapped them around, while playing the usual compressed, clipped CD rubbish through a pair of horrendously boxy B&W speakers. Needless to say, both cables sounded exactly the same, and was hardly the problem in his system.

So to answer the question: My USB cables were silent. Although actually, I just use an Apple headphone dongle at the moment: Ok, it was £7.50, but I'm worth it, and the music comes through with exceptioal clarity!

 

[hoverdonkey]

...

testing chokes on cables. I plan to do that test as well as wrapping cables with aluminum foil!

I have just ploughed through this thread (yes, I made it through the scienceguy banter) and was left wondering - did you ever do these tests?

 

[MaxBuck]

I wonder whether these "audiophiles" who pay big $$ for exotic USB cables have considered that files containing massive structural bridge design calculations and drawings flow through the bargain wires, and the 0s and 1s therein are entirely fine.

 

[Headchef]

So to summarise?
Poor quality components are worsened by poor quality cables?

 

[Julf]

So to summarise?
Poor quality components are worsened by poor quality cables?

Maybe a better summary would be "some cables are not up to spec".

 

[Lupin]

Do you mean you listen to USB cables before buying?


.
[...shees, not often that so many of the few emoticons would be suitable.]

How can one listen to USB cable before buying, everyone knows USB cables need at least 500+ hours of burn-in before you can hear the difference

 

[hoverdonkey]

How can one listen to USB cable before buying, everyone knows USB cables need at least 500+ hours of burn-in before you can hear the difference

And after it's burned-in, freeze it. 1 hour for every mm.

 

[b4nt]

I wonder whether these "audiophiles" who pay big $$ for exotic USB cables have considered that files containing massive structural bridge design calculations and drawings flow through the bargain wires, and the 0s and 1s therein are entirely fine.

There is no data check on USB audio stream, neither any retransmission there. If a bit flips, it will be streamed out flipped.

I've a USB conferencing mic/speaker. It often pops. I believe some bits are occassionnaly dropped or flipping in its USB cable, and it is very audible.

One shall so hear if he has to swap his USB cable. I've some cheap and short "audiophile" USB cables. Payed less than €20. No need to spend so much $, I think.

 

[Katji]

Living in a world where people actually seriously say "listen to cables."

 

[b4nt]

Living in a world where some offer $100 usb sticks to protect you from Wifi, bluetooth and phones radio signals.

 

[Sal1950]

Livin in a world where some folks actually believe a cable carrying a digital signal can sound different than the next.