Do stereo integrated amps convert analog to digital - > analog again?

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

So I'm doing some research and taking into consideration all factors when it comes to sources, DACS, and amps - and i have a bit of a road block when it comes to choosing the 'right path'.

So we all know that plenty of integrated amps have DACS built in for use with the optical and coaxial inputs, and there are also analog inputs via RCA plugs.

My question is how common is it for these analog inputs to convert the signal to a digital format and then back to a analog, since this would essentially make purchasing a DAC useless in this context.

Perhaps a good DAC would be a better option followed by an amplifier with no preamps, etc - and all EQ can be done on the software side i.e. apple music EQ.

Let me know what your thoughts are.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

My question is how common is it for these analog inputs to convert the signal to a digital format and then back to a analog, since this would essentially make purchasing a DAC useless in this context.

How common? I do not know but since it does occur you need to inquire about a specific amp to get a useful answer.

 

[abdo123]

Is there any sort of Equalization or Bass mangement that is beyond the tone control knobs at the front of the amplifier? Then Yes.

Does the amplifier has any smart features that requires the audio to processed instead of just amplified? Then Yes.

Does the amplifier has a niche topology where regular AC current is not a valid input? Then also Yes.

 

[Robin L]

Interesting question. I've got my Apple lossless files on my laptop. That goes to my Topping E/L 30 combo. So, that part of the chain is just digital to analog. The headphones, Drop 6XX, have very low distortion throughout most of the audible range, increasing in the lower octaves where distortion is harder to detect. This is the best sounding headphone system I have owned so far, including a pair of Stax earspeakers with matching tube amp/energizer. The APO EQ is part of that level of performance.

My amp is a Yamaha RX-V461 AVR, 5.1 but pre HDMI which helps explain why I got it used for $50. I have it set up in "Straight" [?], which I guess means that signal processing is out of the circuit. And of course, it has a built-in DAC that I don't use now. My speakers are a/d/s 400e, one of the earliest designs intended to be used with a sub. I have a Sonance "Son of Sub", suitable for a small room. One can tell when the system has various forms of DSP engaged, so it's likely that a signal going into this amp will be going from digital to analog to digital to analog. And of course, one would hear a difference when dsp is engaged, you're supposed to.

I might be able to hear differences in DACs when using the very focused sounding 6XXs, and when I connect those headphones to something else, like directly into the headphone socket of the laptop or a DAP, the sound is different. I doubt that degree of audible difference would be happening over speakers---room interactions and other variables result in more masking via the speakers. I often connect my DAP directly to the Yamaha, does not sound substantially different from the Topping feed, though the DAP itself is a very cheap device. It is unlikely one would hear differences between a superb DAC and a mediocre DAC via speakers in most situations, and the same can be said of multiple D/A conversions in series. I recall a test many years back of a DAT recorder in one of those pro/semi pro magazines, when there where ten generations of digital conversions with no audible difference.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Interesting question. I've got my Apple lossless files on my laptop. That goes to my Topping E/L 30 combo. So, that part of the chain is just digital to analog. The headphones, Drop 6XX, have very low distortion throughout most of the audible range, increasing in the lower octaves where distortion is harder to detect. This is the best sounding headphone system I have owned so far, including a pair of Stax earspeakers with matching tube amp/energizer. The APO EQ is part of that level of performance.

My amp is a Yamaha RX-V461 AVR, 5.1 but pre HDMI which helps explain why I got it used for $50. I have it set up in "Straight" [?], which I guess means that signal processing is out of the circuit. And of course, it has a built-in DAC that I don't use now. My speakers are a/d/s 400e, one of the earliest designs intended to be used with a sub. I have a Sonance "Son of Sub", suitable for a small room. One can tell when the system has various forms of DSP engaged, so it's likely that a signal going into this amp will be going from digital to analog to digital to analog. And of course, one would hear a difference when dsp is engaged, you're supposed to.

I might be able to hear differences in DACs when using the very focused sounding 6XXs, and when I connect those headphones to something else, like directly into the headphone socket of the laptop or a DAP, the sound is different. I doubt that degree of audible difference would be happening over speakers---room interactions and other variables result in more masking via the speakers. I often connect my DAP directly to the Yamaha, does not sound substantially different from the Topping feed, though the DAP itself is a very cheap device. It is unlikely one would hear differences between a superb DAC and a mediocre DAC via speakers in most situations, and the same can be said of multiple D/A conversions in series. I recall a test many years back of a DAT recorder in one of those pro/semi pro magazines, when there where ten generations of digital conversions with no audible difference.

If you've got a yamaha you'd want to put it in 'pure direct' or 'stereo direct' mode for that model I'd think, since on my V6A straight includes certain DSP controls.

 

[Robin L]

If you've got a yamaha you'd want to put it in 'pure direct' or 'stereo direct' mode for that model I'd think, since on my V6A straight includes certain DSP controls.

Right, and I do.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Right, and I do.

Same here - it's my favourite option for stereo listening.

What i do is connect the 'front pre outs' on my AVR to my SVS PB1000 and it feeds a signal to the sub, and it sounds spectacular.

 

[Robin L]

Same here - it's my favourite option for stereo listening.

What i do is connect the 'front pre outs' on my AVR to my SVS PB1000 and it feeds a signal to the sub, and it sounds spectacular.

Mine has a dedicated sub out, line level.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Mine has a dedicated sub out, line level.

That's interesting - my V6A on 'pure direct' doesn't sent a signal to the sub, since it the audio signal is 2.0 and there is minimal DSP in that mode, hence why it sounds so good as a stereo amp.

 

[Robin L]

That's interesting - my V6A on 'pure direct' doesn't sent a signal to the sub, since it the audio signal is 2.0 and there is minimal DSP in that mode, hence why it sounds so good as a stereo amp.

Your AVR is at least a decade newer. When the display on mine says "Straight" there is still a sub output. Obviously a different product.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Your AVR is at least a decade newer. When the display on mine says "Straight" there is still a sub output. Obviously a different product.

Well yeah and that goes back to my point about placing the AVR into the mode which stops all and any processing of the sound - so a 2.0 signal will remain 2.0, or a 5.1 if it's off of a blu-ray DTS of Dolby track.

I think that Yamaha has always had a 'pure direct' mode, but it may be missing from your particular receiver.

 

[Salida]

Many older pre/pros and receivers (think Dolby Digital era) had analog bass management and sub outs. You’ll have to research whatever it is you are considering to get the real scoop on how signals are processed internally.

 

[Robin L]

Many older pre/pros and receivers (think Dolby Digital era) had analog bass management and sub outs. You’ll have to research whatever it is you are considering to get the real scoop on how signals are processed internally.

 

[E-Lint]

Just as a point of information, just having re-arrived in the hobby, I noticed that Emotiva makes a point of saying they handle all analog in's as analog end to end - no conversion - in their Bas-X TA-1 integrated (there is an onboard DAC for digital needs). So analog line in from an offboard source including another DAC never gets reprocessed they say.

 

[SoNic]

If there is any DSP effect applied, that needs to deal with the digital signal. That is bass redirection, delay control and volume per channel, etc.

So that analog stereo signal is firstly converted to digital signal (by an ADC), processed by DSP, then converted back to analog (with a DAC).
The only way the signal stays all the time in analog domain is via 5.1 direct analog connection, if the receiver has one of them.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Is there any sort of Equalization or Bass mangement that is beyond the tone control knobs at the front of the amplifier? Then Yes.

Does the amplifier has any smart features that requires the audio to processed instead of just amplified? Then Yes.

Does the amplifier has a niche topology where regular AC current is not a valid input? Then also Yes.

Nailed it.

 

[B8S4]

Don’t all class D amps convert analog to digital and back to analog?

Because an amp does some digital to analog conversion does not mean it can act as a dac.

I am probably completely misunderstanding.

 

[abdo123]

Don’t all class D amps convert analog to digital and back to analog?

Because an amp does some digital to analog conversion does not mean it can act as a dac.

I am probably completely misunderstanding.

you are. Class D takes AC current as input. no bits.

 

[KMO]

If there is any DSP effect applied, that needs to deal with the digital signal. That is bass redirection, delay control and volume per channel, etc.

So that analog stereo signal is firstly converted to digital signal (by an ADC), processed by DSP, then converted back to analog (with a DAC).
The only way the signal stays all the time in analog domain is via 5.1 direct analog connection, if the receiver has one of them.

A 2.0 signal can certainly stay in the analogue domain throughout by engaging "Direct" mode in most mid- to high-end AVRs. That will disable most functions, but not necessarily all. The 2.0 signal can either take a direct path, or go through the ADC->DSP->DAC cycle.

The 5.1 signal can only go direct (except on really high-end AVRs) because there is only a 2-channel ADC.

Volume per channel is often (usually?) analogue, not digital, so works in "Direct" mode. (And the master volume is just adjusting all channels at once - there isn't a separate master volume circuit). But you're right about bass redirection and delay control.

Although sometimes there is an alternate analogue 80Hz LPF supporting subwoofer output in Direct mode.

 

[Zek]

Don’t all class D amps convert analog to digital and back to analog?

Many confuse the D-Class as a digital amplifier. D is just another designation of the type of amplifier construction such as A, AB, F, G and the like. Class D amplifiers are mostly analog amplifiers. Of course there are also amplifiers that work in digital mode, known as the FDA (full digital amp).