DO SPECS REALLY MATTER in Audio? - Understanding Speaker Measurements!

[TimVG]

@Sean Olive

A big problem is these (mostly arrogant and ignorant) Youtubers put out professional quality videos, reaching and influencing a large amount of people, and making a lot of money off of their nonsense in the process. While the science, in which you've had a large hand, is available for anyone to discover, it seems there has been little focus to put out that knowledge to the average consumer on a for them, understandable level.

ASR is reaching many people, @hardisj just purchased his own Klippel NFS and has a Youtube channel.. But these Youtubers are many, and our voice isn't being heard enough.

 

[Robh3606]

What I find amazing is why anyone cares one whit what these internet "reviewer's" think?? It's really quite funny, start a YouTube channel and you are up and ready to go.

Rob

 

[sweetchaos]

I really feel like he (and similar YouTubers, not to single him out) doesn't care what he says, as long as he's making $ in the process.
He just to appear/act believable/trustworthy/knowledgeable (etc, etc), and people will purchase items using his affiliate links.
He's not the first Youtuber that takes advantage of this, and he won't be the last.

His advice on which speakers to buy means less to me than an electronics store clerk giving me advice on what their store sell...in other words, both have 0% value.

Even before discovering ASR, I went by the advice of experts like Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, and Paul Barton.
My first speakers that I bought were PSB's, that were designed by Paul Barton.
Back then, there were limited spinorama data available, so I relied on anechoic (and semi-anechoic) data as much as possible.

I did NOT listen to a random YouTuber saying good this one speaker is...and "how good it can sound with anything".

 

[Sean Olive]

I really feel like he (and similar YouTubers, not to single him out) doesn't care what he says, as long as he's making $ in the process.
He just to appear/act believable/trustworthy/knowledgeable (etc, etc), and people will purchase items using his affiliate links.
He's not the first Youtuber that takes advantage of this, and he won't be the last.

His advice on which speakers to buy means less to me than an electronics store clerk giving me advice on what their store sell...in other words, both have 0% value.

Even before discovering ASR, I went by the advice of experts like Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, and Paul Barton.
My first speakers that I bought were PSB's, that were designed by Paul Barton.
Back then, there were limited spinorama data available, so I relied on anechoic (and semi-anechoic) data as much as possible.

I did NOT listen to a random YouTuber saying good this one speaker is...and "how good it can sound with anything".

So the consensus here is to ignore these YouTube Channels and just do a better job at spreading audio science in a more digestible consumer-friendly form with higher production values? Makes sense but will anyone do it?

 

[Sean Olive]

FYI...According to him, he was at the Harman facility in Northridge CA already and participated in some listening tests. He talks about it in one of his videos.

Yeah, it's possible but I don't remember. I usually only remember "fun" people.

 

[TimVG]

So the consensus here is to ignore these YouTube Channels and just do a better job at spreading audio science in a more digestible consumer-friendly form with higher production values? Makes sense but will anyone do it?

Erin (@hardisj) has been putting out some great content on Youtube and deserves far, far, far more views and subscribers. You'll like his Revel F226Be review!

https://www.youtube.com/user/hardisj

 

[sweetchaos]

So the consensus here is to ignore these YouTube Channels and just do a better job at spreading audio science in a more digestible consumer-friendly form with higher production values? Makes sense but will anyone do it?

I strongly believe Erin @hardisj (and his recently acquired Klippel NFS) is the hero we need!

Besides Amir, of course!

 

[Sean Olive]

it's not the first time some people stick to that flawed logic

Very flawed logic. The fact is, many companies do co-exist that use similar processes and measurements as we do.

Our measurements are a now standard (ANSI 2034) and because we publish out research, the measurements have been essentially practiced by many companies since 1985 when Dr. Toole published his first AES landmark loudspeaker papers that showed a correlation between subjective and objective measurements, The first companies to benefit were Canadian ones, then later internationally including Harman.

And many companies are now aware and following our headphone target curves since we published that research over the past 8 years.

If it wasn't for research into perceptually relevant measurements, the variance in quality among different brands and models would be much greater today than it was 10 years ago. I have witnessed similar transformations and improvements in headphones over the past 8 years.

Products didn't get better because of people like Andrew. They got better because of science and measurements.

 

[Sean Olive]

Erin (@hardisj) has been putting out some great content on Youtube and deserves far, far, far more views and subscribers. You'll like his Revel F226Be review!

https://www.youtube.com/user/hardisj

I just read it and sent him my regards. Very thorough and he explains well the meaning of the measurements on sound quality.. I just got the Revel C426Be to replace the C208 and the F226Be would the logical replacement for the F206's I have.

 

[bo_knows]

Yeah, it's possible but I don't remember. I usually only remember "fun" people.

I visit the Harman facility as well when I lived in Valencia CA. My neighbor had a good friend that worked for JBL and he gave us a small tour. It was probably around 2004-2005 (don't remember exactly) but we were shown a room where JBL breaks in or tests their subwoofer drivers for 24-48 hours (I think). We had to wear ear-protecting headphones to enter that space. I also saw (probably) the Revel cubicles and at that time the first 3d printer that was maybe used for the tweeter's waveguide (not sure). I was told not to discuss this with anyone . Saw the reference revel salon 1 that was used to measure other speakers FR. It was "naked" without those side panels. JBL guy just showed us briefly the listening room. He also showed us some JBL speakers (in the warehouse type of space) for the professional theaters and told us that Martin Sheen has a system like it that in his house. It was a great tour, loved it and wish I could do it again!

 

[richard12511]

The simple answer is: the lack of controlled, unbiased listening. .

Couldn't agree with this more. I tend to think there is large group of folks who think they prefer non-neutral speakers, but actually do, at least under blind conditions.

Off topic question:

How often do y'all update your blind test playlist? or do y'all just keep what you have(since it works)? I like to setup blind tests with friends and family from time to time, and I've been doing those tests with mostly the Harman published playlist, but recently I've been trying to find newer material to add to it to make it more "current".

 

[Randy Bessinger]

I want to thank Sean for participating in this forum. There are so many things going on in this forum that I think are “right” when there seems to be so much anti-science in the general public. Let me rephrase that a little. There is so much going on that is anti-science if it doesn’t confirm your own views. This forum is just such a refreshing breath of fresh air.

 

[BDWoody]

So the consensus here is to ignore these YouTube Channels and just do a better job at spreading audio science in a more digestible consumer-friendly form with higher production values? Makes sense but will anyone do it?

You being here and interacting with people who have never encountered *actual* experts/luminaries in the audio field goes a long way to help spread the word. There are a few of you about the place, and the more active you and others who have helped the rest of us get where we are here the better.

Amir just did a 2 hour youtube interview with one of our members ( @HionHiFi ) who has created a new site set up to be another counter the nonsense.

Amir is also setting up to do Videos, which should be interesting.

Based on how this site is growing, and how defensive much of the mainstream hi-fi press has become of late (the video you linked being but one example), I'd say they are feeling the pressure.

It's harder for them to hide behind the same old bullshit because there are more and more out there calling them out.

 

[sweetchaos]

I want to thank Sean for participating in this forum. There are so many things going on in this forum that I think are “right” when there seems to be so much anti-science in the general public. Let me rephrase that a little. There is so much going on that is anti-science if it doesn’t confirm your own views. This forum is just such a refreshing breath of fresh air.

Wow, you waited 1384 days before making your first post?
Give this man an award!


Yes, I agree with you.

 

[Randy Bessinger]

LOL

 

[Kachda]

LOL

You're like a bus, no posts for 1384 days and then 2 at the same time !

 

[Randy Bessinger]

^^I do read the forum...I am just old and not very interesting. Wow, three posts. Very tired..need to rest.

 

[Spocko]

@hardisj is one of my favorite YouTube channels now. I watch his videos even if I have no specific interest (to own the) driver or product he's measuring. Bonus that he's a car audio nut which was my previous interest.

Looking forward to more objective YouTubers. @HionHiFi, on the lookout for you. @Spocko should get back to doing more audio related vids.

Thanks for the shout out, and I am planning to focus my audio related reviews more on home cinema surround because (to me at least) it's an easier fish to fry. The Genelec 8050b I sent Amir is part of my 5.4.2 Atmos / 10.1 Auro 3D surround setup to review movie mixes. Reviewing individual speakers (and components) is hell because I completely agree that you need real tools like what @hardisj and ASR have for baseline objectivity. Then we have the subjective listening assessment which is completely personal preference and not useful in the context of the 100 other similar reviews, and totally becomes victim to fanboy angry posts "you clueless hack, I love my Bose and I'm a professional bassoon player at the Met". At the end of the day, it would be easier for me to just send Amir speakers to measure/review, then bring him on YT to discuss his impressions.

On the other hand, I can provide useful subjective assessments of Atmos mixes as long as I have a respectable system designed to accurately place all these 3D audio objects. This space is also a little less crowded, less combative and a bit more fun.

 

[Pharos]

I find myself almost livid with the ubiquity of people who think that having an opinion alone must make it valid regardless of the work done to arrive at that opinion, and it seems that such people are very much more egotistical than others who may be quietly working hard and achieving, but not 'shouting' about it.

Science is a result of numerous people doing arduous and unglamorous work in a back room, the results of which can be verified independently by others, and which hence becomes accepted as valid theory.

Science is limited in its scope because we do not know everything, hence the need for constant research to better human knowledge and improve the human predicament.

The established criteria for measurement of speaker performance are valid, but not a fully comprehensive analysis of everything; hence speakers measuring similarly may well sound different.

Regardless of this limitation, the measurement criteria are very useful because they define certain necessary parameters which a speaker should be designed to fulfil well; in not doing so a speaker will usually sound wrong on audition.

The poster saying that there are other variables which are present and which invalidate those objective ones known to designers, is a non sequitur.

 

[Spocko]

So the consensus here is to ignore these YouTube Channels and just do a better job at spreading audio science in a more digestible consumer-friendly form with higher production values? Makes sense but will anyone do it?

YouTube (YT) is incredibly influential: 74% of adults in the U.S. access YT and more shocking still 23% of Americans get their news from YT and from this we can easily conclude that research for consumer electronics (audio, video, home entertainment) ultimately leads to YT. So although the more sophisticated subject matter experts do indeed ignore YT, mainstream consumers prefer to be spoon fed information about everything.