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Do small speakers make things sound small?

drfrink24

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Do small speakers produce small sound?

My setup:
Electronics
ICePower 200ASC DIY fed by a Topping E50 DAC. I've used CamilloDSP on my MoodeAudio and REW to do some room corrections, and I'm also using Dayton LF1 to adjust the room response for my subwoofer.

Speakers
DIY Speedster TMM, paired with a RSL Speedwoofer 10S

Having only two 4" midbass drivers, even with good xmax, in a smallish room (14x14, not ideal, I know), they reproduce good sound, but its "small".. Like everything is 1/20th scale.

They also lack much "punch/impact", despite having decent low end response.

Contrast to my home theater setup, which has multiple 8" drivers in ported enclosures, they do sound bigger/louder (but not better!) than my 2ch setup. Its like I'm sacrificing sound "size" for accuracy/transparency.
 

tmuikku

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Yes one could say so but as you know it would be quite a generalization, but yes :) Could be resonance, high Q peak(s) or wrong spectral balance or perhaps something else like edge diffraction especially if EQ was used. Anyway my bet is that some problem(s) draws your attention making everything appear small, so its hard to give you simple answer. Even the room corrections could be culprit.

In general a problem free system would sound better and better as you turn volume up until hearing system says its too loud and not comfortable anymore. Here is your SPL capability target for a loudspeaker system. If it messures 85db on some scale on your db meter then use that, add some headroom for transients, 15db for example so 100db problem free SPL is your goal. If you then start to go further, figure out what kind of system can do it with bandwidth you want its gonna be big, bigger than what you have.
 

Rednaxela

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As long as they don’t make things look small I’m not too worried. :)
 

Sokel

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That's the usual 80-200Hz problem that small speakers paired with subs have.
Every measurement I have seen in such setup shows a lack of mid-bass before correction.
And punch is about mid-bass (among others).
 

wwenze

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Mainly the actual in-room frequency response plus amount of reflection. Tower speakers don't get much floor or table reflection since the drivers are, well, far from the floor. Plus a small baffle size relative to the typical listening distances where tower speakers are used. This is resolved by putting the speakers close to the front wall. Even better if you can put them close to the side wall too. That will help your 4" woofers produce more of the <200Hz.

In-room EQ with target curve can help a lot.
 

thewas

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That's the usual 80-200Hz problem that small speakers paired with subs have.
Every measurement I have seen in such setup shows a lack of mid-bass before correction.
And punch is about mid-bass (among others).
I usually rather notice that problem on typical 2.0 setups with the loudspeakers placed in the "forbidden" region relative to the front wall which give those SBIR dips on that mid bass:
Genelec.jpg


Sub assisted systems give more flexibility, also regarding good placement for imaging of the satellites:
index.php
 

GXAlan

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Not so straightforward. Something like the HDI-1600 with its 6.5 inch woofer is likely to offer more impact than the vintage 12" JBL 2130

1659306647169.png


It's all about volume of air being moved which can achieved through a long-throw/high-excursion or a larger surface area.

With a longer throw, there may be distortion from non-linear excursion and need for a lot of power (why high-throw subwoofers often have very high wattage amplifiers). With large diameter drivers, that can be cone breakup and loss of pistonic nature of the radiating area. The larger driver can also lead to diffraction from the enclosure since we generally have rectangular boxes.
 

Midnight Audiophile

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I run a 2.2 system (2 small subs and bookshelf speakers) in a room that is 10.5 x 19 with 8' ceiling. It's set up in in a 40" triangle. I tried 4" drivers on the bookshelf speakers and found them lacking then stepped up to 5 1/4" (Dali Spektor 2s) which I find have a much bigger sound especially in the mid bass. It hits the sweet spot for me.
 

ROOSKIE

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Do small speakers produce small sound?

My setup:
Electronics
ICePower 200ASC DIY fed by a Topping E50 DAC. I've used CamilloDSP on my MoodeAudio and REW to do some room corrections, and I'm also using Dayton LF1 to adjust the room response for my subwoofer.

Speakers
DIY Speedster TMM, paired with a RSL Speedwoofer 10S

Having only two 4" midbass drivers, even with good xmax, in a smallish room (14x14, not ideal, I know), they reproduce good sound, but its "small".. Like everything is 1/20th scale.

They also lack much "punch/impact", despite having decent low end response.

Contrast to my home theater setup, which has multiple 8" drivers in ported enclosures, they do sound bigger/louder (but not better!) than my 2ch setup. Its like I'm sacrificing sound "size" for accuracy/transparency.
Are you high passing the monitors?
What is the xover frequency.
Do you have various in room measures to post here so we can see a little about what you have? It would be nice to see with and without subs.
14x14 is roughly the size of one of my previous room (13.5×15 + a "nook")
I'd think you could get the punch you want in there without huge speakers.
In mine 2, 8" subs easily filled the space with all bass I needed and I go loud fairly regularly and like bass.(In my current room I use 2 15's right now) I think a 10" of high quality and a 4 nice 4" woofers could really do the job.
You might be sitting in deep nulls due to strong room modes especially at certain spots in a square space but id think that your measurements would have shown you that already.
You might also want to use a 100 or 120hrz HP or the mains and LP on the subs which should be fine if the sub is near or in the front. If it is behind you or something you might localize it a little.


For others with similar questions.
1st as above are you High Passing the monitors.
Did you measure as you integrated the sub?
If not the responce could be way, way off in region the speakers overlap.
You should see how bad the responce is for example if I set the filters to exactly 80hrz electronically (vs actual acoustic measurements) in my current set-up. Also if using different slopes it can be even worse without measuring to see what is actually going on acoustically.(vs just the electrical settings)
I know the OP is using REW and more but as an overall responce to general readers the above must be addressed.
 
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drfrink24

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Are you high passing the monitors?
What is the xover frequency.
Do you have various in room measures to post here so we can see a little about what you have? It would be nice to see with and without subs.
14x14 is roughly the size of one of my previous room (13.5×15 + a "nook")
I'd think you could get the punch you want in there without huge speakers.
In mine 2, 8" subs easily filled the space with all bass I needed and I go loud fairly regularly and like bass.(In my current room I use 2 15's right now) I think a 10" of high quality and a 4 nice 4" woofers could really do the job.
You might be sitting in deep nulls due to strong room modes especially at certain spots in a square space but id think that your measurements would have shown you that already.
You might also want to use a 100 or 120hrz HP or the mains and LP on the subs which should be fine if the sub is near or in the front. If it is behind you or something you might localize it a little.


For others with similar questions.
1st as above are you High Passing the monitors.
Did you measure as you integrated the sub?
If not the responce could be way, way off in region the speakers overlap.
You should see how bad the responce is for example if I set the filters to exactly 80hrz electronically (vs actual acoustic measurements) in my current set-up. Also if using different slopes it can be even worse without measuring to see what is actually going on acoustically.(vs just the electrical settings)
I know the OP is using REW and more but as an overall responce to general readers the above must be addressed.

First, thank you for the response. My summer has been consumed with a pool/deck building project, so time spent on my audio has taken a back burner, sorry for the late responses.

I am not high-passing the monitors in this current setup and this room. Truth be told, it sounded "small" in another room as well when I was high-passing the monitors. I've since disabled the Camillo DSP settings in Moode. I did not measure with the Sub. My listening has always been near-field, about 6 foot equilateral triangle.

I can post various room measurements with REW. I do know that when I did room measurements for my Dayton LF1 device, there were large nulls.

Two other observations though (again, haven't had time to measure with REW, I will rerun)
1. I've moved the speakers about 20 inches from the back wall (back firing port) and put the subwoofer in the corner, which has significantly improved the bass response (still lacks punch to a degree, but see observation 2). Previously they were almost in the center of the room.
2. Ok, this is stupid, and I apologize... I cranked it up, WAY up.. to only about -10 db on my E50. The sound was much bigger, more punch. Only issue is the highs go from being smooth to pretty bright/unpleasant. Also its not really conducive to anyone else enjoying their day in the same house :)
 

Wolf

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Have you tried inverting the polarity on the subwoofer? Sometimes integration due to roll off slopes of a vented box require the subwoofer to be inverted 180° to some properly.
 

moonlight rainbow dream

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Just post some quick and dirty in-room measurements of the Speedsters setup and then your HT setup.

"Size of sound" in audiophile parlance I usually chalk up to bass extension... but measurement will tell you exactly what is going on.
 
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drfrink24

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Here is my 2.1 channel setup, with the subwoofer not active. PC directly to amplifier. I'm no REW expert, so excuse any mistakes I've made.
 

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Neuro

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The sound from my JBL control 1 is perceived as clearly smaller in size than my Yamaha NS-1000.
But my NS-1000s sound like little toy speakers compared to my Apogee Duettas even though they have lower bass.
According to the literature, perceived bass and loudness determine perceived sound size, but not when compared to Apogee dipoles.
Why?
 

moonlight rainbow dream

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The sound from my JBL control 1 is perceived as clearly smaller in size than my Yamaha NS-1000.
But my NS-1000s sound like little toy speakers compared to my Apogee Duettas even though they have lower bass.
According to the literature, perceived bass and loudness determine perceived sound size, but not when compared to Apogee dipoles.
Why?

Again, side-by-side in-room measurements of each speaker will surely tell you a lot.

A really simple listening experiment I would do is apply a HPF to both, then A-B comparison. Typically, dipoles are less affected by the room than monopoles, because of the radiation pattern created by cancellation between the front wave and back wave.
 

moonlight rainbow dream

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Here is my 2.1 channel setup, with the subwoofer not active. PC directly to amplifier. I'm no REW expert, so excuse any mistakes I've made.

It's a hassle I know... but you need to measure your other setup with 8" woofers too. Then, you can see clearly how the perceived difference you hear shows up in terms of measurements.

Seems like the posters who hypothesized a problem in the "midbass", upper bass region 100-200hz may be onto something. You can see a broad scoop out as well as a couple deep suckouts. If you run typical 80hz sub crossover, this will not address that response error. It'd be worthwhile to try raising the crossover frequency and see if it improves the situation.

To be sure though, we have to see what the other setup measures like. For example, it might have an even bigger issue that is creating an exaggerated sensation of "size".
 
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drfrink24

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I finally go around to measuring my HT setup, as theorized, yes, it would appear that 100-170hz is considerably higher than my 2ch setup in my other room. Outside of that range, the speedsters seem to have a much more flat response curve in general. Note that I am also aware of the 1K to 2K response problems with my Kit281, the AV8 and 1" audax tweeters leave a hollow spot at the point of crossover, as the AV8 can't play high enough and the audax can't go low enough. Also also think the peaks for my Speedsters are unfortunate, because knocking them down with Camillo DSP really takes out any depth. Red is Kit281, blue is SpeedsterTMM
 

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moonlight rainbow dream

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I finally go around to measuring my HT setup, as theorized, yes, it would appear that 100-170hz is considerably higher than my 2ch setup in my other room. Outside of that range, the speedsters seem to have a much more flat response curve in general. Note that I am also aware of the 1K to 2K response problems with my Kit281, the AV8 and 1" audax tweeters leave a hollow spot at the point of crossover, as the AV8 can't play high enough and the audax can't go low enough. Also also think the peaks for my Speedsters are unfortunate, because knocking them down with Camillo DSP really takes out any depth. Red is Kit281, blue is SpeedsterTMM

Thanks for sharing!

The response dip in that region is usually due to something called "floor bounce". This is a potential advantage a tower has over a bookshelf (even if they have comparable bass extension and output), because a typical tower speaker has more bass-radiating elements spread out over a greater vertical distance.

If somebody knows of literature investigating audibility / perception of floor bounce, that'd be neat.
 
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drfrink24

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Thanks for sharing!

The response dip in that region is usually due to something called "floor bounce". This is a potential advantage a tower has over a bookshelf (even if they have comparable bass extension and output), because a typical tower speaker has more bass-radiating elements spread out over a greater vertical distance.

If somebody knows of literature investigating audibility / perception of floor bounce, that'd be neat.
Both of these pairs of speakers (Speedster TMM, Adire Kit281) are tower speakers. The Kit281 are rather large towers, since they are ported with two 8" woofers in a MTM design. There could be another culprit; I have an active crossover that pre-dates digital/Minidsp, which has the ability to add phase correction and volume trim to the tweeters. I've never calibrated this using any device beyond what sounds good. That carve out could be a result of my tweeters being out of phase/timing to the woofers.

If I get time at some point, I'm going to attempt to see if any adjustment helps shallow out that dip in the crossover region using REW and my UMik1
 
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