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newaudioguy77

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I've read about the PS Audio P12 being ineffective on this site. I also watched the YouTube video with the PS Audio Noise Harvester not doing anything useful.

Power conditioners can be sold for hundreds of dollars or a lot more! Do these products actually clean your electricity?

And if so, which one actually works?
 

DonR

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Theoretically, no, at least not for the vast majority of people. They attempt to solve a problem that largely does not exist. At least the PSA Noise Harvester is relatively cheap.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I would advise you to read the review on this forum on the PS Audio power conditioner. Many people (including me) went to great lengths to explain the pros and cons of power conditioners and who might benefit from them.
 
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newaudioguy77

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Theoretically, no, at least not for the vast majority of people. They attempt to solve a problem that largely does not exist. At least the PSA Noise Harvester is relatively cheap.
My Technics receiver was silent with the headphone out at zero volume when I'm alone in the house. I tested it again when I had people over (charging their phones, cooking/using appliances) and there was a noticeable hum. So I think dirty power is a real thing.

What do you mean - at least it is cheap?
It was proven to do nothing. But people have paid real money for it.
 

AudiOhm

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I have an Adcom ACE-615 AC enhancer, it makes a great switching device for powering my equipment on/off...

Ohms
 

MakeMineVinyl

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My Technics receiver was silent with the headphone out at zero volume when I'm alone in the house. I tested it again when I had people over (charging their phones, cooking/using appliances) and there was a noticeable hum. So I think dirty power is a real thing.
It's more likely any interference was being radiated through the air and picked up through the components, not through the power cord. I have random hums and buzzes come and go at times also but power conditioning has nothing to do with that.
 

DonR

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My Technics receiver was silent with the headphone out at zero volume when I'm alone in the house. I tested it again when I had people over (charging their phones, cooking/using appliances) and there was a noticeable hum. So I think dirty power is a real thing.
Could be. There are a couple of things here.

1) ground loops
2) insufficient filtering on the receiver's power supply. Probably built before the widespread use of switching power supplies adding noise to our home circuits.
3) RFI
 

Jimbob54

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I would advise you to read the review on this forum on the PS Audio power conditioner. Many people (including me) went to great lengths to explain the pros and cons of power conditioners and who might benefit from them.
I think the OP is saying they already have. A quick look at the OP's history on here might give an indication of where this is going.
 

clearnfc

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In most cases you dont need an external power conditioner.

This is because vast majority of the components have power conditioning built into their power supply. If you open up your equipment and look at the power section, you will likely see common mode chokes and x/y caps.

However, external conditioners are still useful. This is because many of them (not all) have surge protection and some have ground loop protection too. Then they also work as a multi-socket extension.

Of course, some of these are sold at ridiculous prices which doesnt make any sense.
 

Waxx

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It's only valid if you have a lot of issues with your AC system, or a lot of bad filtered equipment on the same fuse plug and electric line (like cheap fridges). And the best way to avoid those issus is actually an online UPS, where the battery is always used as a buffer between the wall AC and the AC going out. A simple EMI/RFI filter won't fix that, nor esotheric stuff like floating grounds into magic stones or other snake oil stuff. Special power cables or plugs won't do nothing neighter. I had AC issues in a rental house a while ago, and fixed it with an UPS of a few hundred €'s. My actual house does not have those issues.

But in most cases it's not needed as your devices should have the EMI/RFI filter anyway (if they have an SMPS PSU certainly) and with linear PSU's a CRC or CLC filtering and a voltage regulator will also regulate the current, even when there is no EMI/RFI filter (mostly there is, certainly when certified).
 

Speedskater

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On Power Conditioners

In that 'power conditioner' is an undefined term. It could mean almost any combination of the following.

a) Noise filter - a low-pass EMI/RFI filter.
b) Surge protector - although it's better to have surge protection at the home's service entrance.
c) UPS - note that many UPS's are not really UPS's!
d) Line voltage adjuster.
e) Balanced power transformer.
f) Isolated power transformer.
g) DC blockers.
h) Regenerators (PSAudio)
i) Power Factor Correction
j) I forget? But I think that there are more.
 

aedagnino

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Depends for what. Sound? Unless it's doing something really wrong, no. Safety? Depends on where you are. But a $20 dollar powerstrip will do the same.
 

clearnfc

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On Power Conditioners

In that 'power conditioner' is an undefined term. It could mean almost any combination of the following.

a) Noise filter - a low-pass EMI/RFI filter.
b) Surge protector - although it's better to have surge protection at the home's service entrance.
c) UPS - note that many UPS's are not really UPS's!
d) Line voltage adjuster.
e) Balanced power transformer.
f) Isolated power transformer.
g) DC blockers.
h) Regenerators (PSAudio)
i) Power Factor Correction
j) I forget? But I think that there are more.

Btw, just to point out that regenerators are the most expensive!! I am not siding with PS Audio, just to say that power regenerators are very expensive today esp with high capacity (3000-5000VA).

However, one good news is that UPS with pure sine wave generators are getting more popular and prices are coming down (Still expensive but getting cheaper).


You can check out the shape of the wave and its awesome. ITs able to maintain 230v 50Hz under any load with very small ripple. I would say some additional filter will easily smooth it out.

Btw, one could opt for the cheaper lead acid battery version instead of lithium-ion.

If you want the cleanest possible power, a generator would be the answer.
 

Chrise36

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It's more likely any interference was being radiated through the air and picked up through the components, not through the power cord. I have random hums and buzzes come and go at times also but power conditioning has nothing to do with that.
I can show repeatedly that my monitor psu causes noise in my audio setup if i connect its power outlet near my audio devices i had various noises coming either from the ac unit or the refrigerator in different houses.
 

clearnfc

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I can show repeatedly that my monitor psu causes noise in my audio setup if i connect its power outlet near my audio devices i had various noises coming either from the ac unit or the refrigerator in different houses.

Its a very very common problem, esp. with appliances that has electric motor.
 

Obelisk

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I've read about the PS Audio P12 being ineffective on this site. I also watched the YouTube video with the PS Audio Noise Harvester not doing anything useful.

Power conditioners can be sold for hundreds of dollars or a lot more! Do these products actually clean your electricity?

And if so, which one actually works?

Two true stories:

1995: Office with a number of desktop PCs and an HP LaserJet 4 laser printer sharing the same AC circuit. During the middle of the business day, when someone started printed, invariably one of the nearby PCs would lockup or spontaneously reboot. We purchased APC 1,250 watt line conditioners (basically a big, heavy transformer in a plastic box) for each of the PCs. No more PC problems when the printer started.

1999: Biotech laboratory. We had an instrument called a Nicomp from Particle Sizing Systems. This instrument had a reputation for burning people while they took sample vials in and out of the unit. (I'm highlighting the overall design quality of the device) After moving buildings, the Nicomp seemed to have problems outputting consistent data. (There were now a lot of Waters HPLCs on the same bench.) We purchased a Powerware On-Line Uninterruptible Power Supply (AC -> Batteries -> Inverter, 100% of the time) so that the Nicomp was effectively running off battery power. Powered by the on-line UPS, all the data consistency issues with the Nicomp disappeared.

In the first instance we were pretty confident the start-up current of the laser printer was dragging down the voltage of the AC circuit more than the PC power supplies could cope with. In the second instance, the Nicomp device likely had a poor quality power supply. In both instances, line conditioning solved the problems.

Would I put a line conditioner between the wall and my Parasound HCA-2200 II amplifier, with its two 1.2KVA transformers and 110,000 µf of power supply capacitors? Absolutely not! A line conditioner would impede the amplifier's power supply from doing it's job. (Pun intended) That doesn't stop me from having a whole house surge suppressor and plugging the amplifier into a good quality surge suppressor/power bar.

Line conditioners can solve specific problems. With a "normal" AC mains supply, any properly designed equipment will not need a line conditioner. If you live in a region with regular power outages and/or use a backup generator, line conditioning and/or an uninterruptible power supply might be a good idea. If you don't appear to be having AC power quality problems, you should not need a line conditioner. If your concern is EMI/RF noise on the AC mains, a good quality power bar like a Tripp Lite Isobar can solve that type of issue for not a lot of money.

If you are looking for a good quality line conditioner, look at computer industry brands like APC, Eaton, Tripp Lite, etc., as they offer superior value and performance compared to audiophile brands.

VERY IMPORTANT: Line Conditioners, Surge Suppressors and Uninterruptible Power Supplies (UPS) each do a different job. While many UPS and line conditioning devices advertise some surge suppression capability, they are NOT surge suppressors. Read this Eaton article!
 
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newaudioguy77

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Two true stories:

1995: Office with a number of desktop PCs and an HP LaserJet 4 laser printer sharing the same AC circuit. During the middle of the business day, when someone started printed, invariably one of the nearby PCs would lockup or spontaneously reboot. We purchased APC 1,250 watt line conditioners (basically a big, heavy transformer in a plastic box) for each of the PCs. No more PC problems when the printer started.

1999: Biotech laboratory. We had an instrument called a Nicomp from Particle Sizing Systems. This instrument had a reputation for burning people while they took sample vials in and out of the unit. (I'm highlighting the overall design quality of the device) After moving buildings, the Nicomp seemed to have problems outputting consistent data. (There were now a lot of Waters HPLCs on the same bench.) We purchased a Powerware On-Line Uninterruptible Power Supply (AC -> Batteries -> Inverter, 100% of the time) so that the Nicomp was effectively running off battery power. Powered by the on-line UPS, all the data consistency issues with the Nicomp disappeared.

In the first instance we were pretty confident the start-up current of the laser printer was dragging down the voltage of the AC circuit more than the PC power supplies could cope with. In the second instance, the Nicomp device likely had a poor quality power supply. In both instances, line conditioning solved the problems.

Would I put a line conditioner between the wall and my Parasound HCA-2200 II amplifier, with its two 1.2KVA transformers and 110,000 µf of power supply capacitors? Absolutely not! A line conditioner would impede the amplifier's power supply from doing it's job. (Pun intended) That doesn't stop me from having a whole house surge suppressor and plugging the amplifier into a good quality surge suppressor/power bar.

Line conditioners can solve specific problems. With a "normal" AC mains supply, any properly designed equipment will not need a line conditioner. If you live in a region with regular power outages and/or use a backup generator, line conditioning and/or an uninterruptible power supply might be a good idea. If you don't appear to be having AC power quality problems, you should not need a line conditioner. If your concern is EMI/RF noise on the AC mains, a good quality power bar like a Tripp Lite Isobar can solve that type of issue for not a lot of money.

If you are looking for a good quality line conditioner, look at computer industry brands like APC, Eaton, Tripp Lite, etc., as they offer superior value and performance compared to audiophile brands.

VERY IMPORTANT: Line Conditioners, Surge Suppressors and Uninterruptible Power Supplies (UPS) each do a different job. While many UPS and line conditioning devices advertise some surge suppression capability, they are NOT surge suppressors. Read this Eaton article!
This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for! You made clear points and I believe you set the bar for others who are also wondering about power conditioners. Thank you so much!

When you say:

Would I put a line conditioner between the wall and my Parasound HCA-2200 II amplifier, with its two 1.2KVA transformers and 110,000 µf of power supply capacitors? Absolutely not! A line conditioner would impede the amplifier's power supply from doing it's job. (Pun intended)

Aren't the amplifier's power supply and transformers going to function normally anyway?

Does that mean worse performance? I have read about power line conditioners robbing systems of dynamics and punch. And yes, they are subjective terms....but people claim to have noticed differences before and after.

In theory anyway, wouldn't slightly cleaner power place less strain on the audio components, leading to maximum performance? So in other words, line conditioned power going in to an amplifier wouldn't have to be regulated as much by the power transformer. In audio, I guess they say the shortest path is the best. So in this case, we're trying our best for that...

I hope I made sense. :)
 

Waxx

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If you use line conditioners, you need to make sure they can handle the peak current of your setup. With 2 x 12kVa transfo's this means the amp can pull about 2400w (11A in 220v, 22A in 110v) so your liine conditioners need to be able to handle at least 150% of that. Most won't do that and those who do that are high power UPS or line condtioners that cost a lot. It's probally cheaper then to fix your AC system by creating a seperate line from the breaker board for that amplifier. And that amplifier should have his own RFI/EMI filter system when it's build like the rules are in modern electronics, so that should not be needed.

If you run low power amps on a not so stable AC system like i did in my house (amp pulling less than 400w) then an UPS and a line filter will not do affect the workings of the amplifier psu and it can help to fix the sound. So it all depends on the setup, the power needed and what kind of problem you try to fix (and if it's the best solution in that case). And in most cases, it's not needed to fix an issue because there is none that a good amplifier can't fix with it's psu.
 
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