Do my Sundaras need more power or are they just faulty?

[jawbfl]

Yes. If both amplifiers are capable of delivering the current drawn by the load at a given output voltage (volume dependent) and both exhibit low output impedance (less relevant to Sundara), noise and distortion will be the factors which determine whether the amplifiers can be distinguished from each other.

I read experiences of people on a laptops have to push the volume way high to make Sundara sound better, that's definitely the case for me, on max volume it's painful but it sounds muddy, for those people using a decent amp they don't have to push volume and they say it's a major improvement in sound stage, low end performance etc (can't personally confirm), @holicst experienced similar issue.

In practical terms, almost any modern source will exhibit noise and distortion below the threshold of audibility.

If noise isn't the factor here, how do you explain this behavior?

 

[paolomo]

@solderdude I just wanted to thank you for your never-ending willingness to educate those of us who are less technically fluent. Your level of patience is really quite remarkable.

I second that.

 

[Jimbob54]

I read experiences of people on a laptops have to push the volume way high to make Sundara sound better, that's definitely the case for me, on max volume it's painful but it sounds muddy, for those people using a decent amp they don't have to push volume and they say it's a major improvement in sound stage, low end performance etc (can't personally confirm), @holicst experienced similar issue.



If noise isn't the factor here, how do you explain this behavior?

Differentiate source from amp. In the macbook example there is a DAC converting the digital stream (source) then an amp stage- you are probably driving the amp to clipping and/or distortion at max. If you instead used the macbook into the Atom and let the Atom do the heavy lifting- no clipping or increased distortion.

 

[Weeb Labs]

I read experiences of people on a laptops have to push the volume way high to make Sundara sound better, that's definitely the case for me, on max volume it's painful but it sounds muddy, for those people using a decent amp they don't have to push volume and they say it's a major improvement in sound stage, low end performance etc (can't personally confirm), @holicst experienced similar issue.



If noise isn't the factor here, how do you explain this behavior?

You are most likely clipping the output.

At low volume levels, the equal loudness contours significantly reduce the amount of audible bass and higher frequencies. This can give rise to the perception that an amplifier with relatively low voltage swing is “anemic”, as low frequencies will then also be the first to clip when volume is raised. Output measurements would be needed.

Otherwise, this is a sighted observation and may disappear under controlled ABX conditions.

 

[jawbfl]

the Sundaras have sounded identical on everything.

Do you still think this statement is correct?

 

[Weeb Labs]

Do you still think this statement is correct?

With respect to my preferred listening levels, yes. There is no doubt that were I to run all of my sources at maximum volume into the Sundaras, some of them would clip.

As mentioned previously, this is highly dependent upon one’s listening levels.

 

[sandymc]

I have a the Hifiman/Drop HE5xx. Very similar sensitivity to the Sundara, but about half the impedance (18 vs 37 ohms). They sound ok driven straight off my iPad. There's no audible distortion, but the volume does have to be set quite high. They do sound better - a bit fuller - driven from a Topping stack, but the difference isn't enough that you'd think there's any problem.

 

[jawbfl]

With respect to my preferred listening levels, yes. There is no doubt that were I to run all of my sources at maximum volume into the Sundaras, some of them would clip.

Thanks, I use it on the macbook at ~60% volume and I really hope it will sound better once I get an adequate amp because I'm not 100% satisfied with the sound.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Thanks, I use it on the macbook at ~60% volume and I really hope it will sound better once I get an adequate amp because I'm not 100% satisfied with the sound.

The discussion has thus far centred around amplification but have you considered that the Sundara’s natural frequency response simply might not be to your preference?

I would suggest having a look into EQ (specifically Oratory’s profiles), if you have not already. The Sundara does exhibit a slight low frequency roll off by default.

 

[Nango]

Is HE-560 V4 (ridiculous offered now at 269$!!) tonally more an HE-500 than a Sundara ..... or has nothing to do with?

 

[jawbfl]

The discussion has thus far centred around amplification but have you considered that the Sundara’s natural frequency response simply might not be to your preference?

I would suggest having a look into EQ (specifically Oratory’s profiles), if you have not already. The Sundara does exhibit a slight low frequency roll off by default.

I got it because it follows same response of M50x which I liked but more flat, it's not that I'm disappointed, I just want a bit more sound stage and resolution which I think need more power and lower noise/distortion, I might EQ the low end a bit, on some tracks I just want a fun sound rather than pure fidelity.

 

[Weeb Labs]

I got it because it follows same response of M50x which I liked but more flat, it's not that I'm disappointed, I just want a bit more sound stage and resolution which I think need more power and lower noise/distortion, I might EQ the low end a bit, on some tracks I just want a fun sound rather than pure fidelity.

Perceived soundstage is unrelated to amplifier power output but I would encourage you to try other sources regardless, given that we have no data for this particular output.

As I’m sure you are aware, many owners of this headphone use them in conjunction with phones, dongles and laptops without encountering such problems.

 

[jawbfl]

Yeah some say soundstage is more related to noise floor, I'm not sure but at a higher volume I feel it's wider.

Another question I had, M50x has an impedance of 38ohm, Sundara has 37ohm, why the Sundara requires much more volume level on the computer? sorry for asking so many questions.

 

[Jimbob54]

Yeah some say soundstage is more related to noise floor, I'm not sure but at a higher volume I feel it's wider.

Another question I had, M50x has an impedance of 38ohm, Sundara has 37ohm, why the Sundara requires much more volume level on the computer? sorry for asking so many questions.

Sensitivity.

Specifically Sundara is 94dB ( I assume both of these are for mw, neither manuf states) and M50 is 99dB so for the first mw, the M50 is 5 dB louder. For the same position on the volume knob, the M50 will be louder.

EDIT- even better, what @solderdude says just below.

 

[solderdude]

to be more precise... voltage sensitivity.

Sundara = 108dB/V
M50X = 117dB/V

The M50X is twice as loud at the same volume setting than Sundara so more..

 

[Tigi]

If I deduce correctly, the amplifier should deliver about 2.82 times higher voltage to the Sundara to achieve the same SPL as M50X (dB Voltage = 20 log (V1/V2)). Which is definitely not a small amount.

 

[Weeb Labs]

If I deduce correctly, the amplifier should deliver about 2.82 times higher voltage to the Sundara to achieve the same SPL as M50X (dB Voltage = 20 log (V1/V2)). Which is definitely not a small amount.

Driving a headphone with a sensitivity of 108dB/V and an impedance of 37 Ohms to 117dB would require 2.82V (at 76mA for 215mW). You can find a handy calculator here.

 

[Jimbob54]

Driving a headphone with a sensitivity of 108dB/V and an impedance of 37 Ohms to 117dB would require 2.82V (at 76mA for 215mW). You can find a handy calculator here.

Ignoramus question, how do you know /work out the current draw? I see 50ma quoted, you say 76 here. Is it fixed by the amp and only the voltage varies or do both vary depending on cans and volume knob?

 

[Tigi]

Power = Current x Voltage = Current x Current x Impedance = (Voltage x Voltage) / Impedance

 

[Weeb Labs]

Ignoramus question, how do you know /work out the current draw? I see 50ma quoted, you say 76 here. Is it fixed by the amp and only the voltage varies or do both vary depending on cans and volume knob?

You can determine the current by applying Ohm's Law. If we know that the output voltage is 2.82V and the load is 37 Ohms, then we can plug those values into the equation.

I = V / R

And therefore:

2.82 / 37 = 0.076A or 76mA