Do my Sundaras need more power or are they just faulty?

[nohomo_sapiens]

I just got my Sundara and Khadas Tone2 Pro DAC/amp (running it unbalanced which is rated at around 110 mW) yesterday and I'm disappointed with the soundstage. It sounds extremely narrow, certainly more than what most reviews hint at since it sounds almost like the closed back headphones I tried (ATH M40X, AKG K361, WH-H900N) so I am wondering whether they are just underamped or faulty.

 

[Cahudson42]

My HE400i (2016) and HE5XX needed, imo, an amp that can deliver at least one undistorted watt. A Qudelix single ended, I believe a little less than 100mw, didn't cut it at all. Balanced, at 250mw, sufficient - but barely.

Suggest you try them with a more powerful amp before sending back.

Even though it's far from optimal, you could try on your Stereo/AVR/tv headphone output. Though most of these simply use a 330 ohm or thereabouts dropping resistor off the main speaker outputs, I would expect you should get more than 110mw.

 

[Nango]

10 Volts upwards they need, better 12 V. I just hope @amirm wont test it only with the ADI-Dac.

 

[BartekG]

My prodigy cube was too weak for the sundara. I don't remember any problems with soundstage but the bass was very muddy and bloated. On a Topping A50s balanced there is a night and day difference eg. Royksopp's "Sombre Detune" sounded like a tar pool on the cube and on A50s the bass notes are low and precise. The cube has a very low output impedance on it's 6mm output so I blame sundara's power requirements. If you google a bit you will find other people questioning the low power requirements of those headphones.

 

[Weeb Labs]

It is quite possible that you have a defective unit. I have used my Sundaras in conjunction with audio interfaces, MacBook Pro outputs, dongles and several dedicated amplifiers without issue. With the exception of limited volume and encountering clipping if certain sources are pushed with low frequency EQ, the Sundaras have sounded identical on everything.

 

[Jimbob54]

10 Volts upwards they need, better 12 V. I just hope @amirm wont test it only with the ADI-Dac.

Why not?

 

[devopsprodude]

Yeah, soundstage should not be sounding narrow. You either have something wrong with the headphones or else something wrong elsewhere. Soundstage for me is very wide just connecting to Macbook Pro while listening to Spotify.

 

[Nango]

Why not?

Has not enough power.

 

[nohomo_sapiens]

Very weird. The headphones sound amazing with the soundstage being the only problem. I may buy a new amp to see if it fixes it. If not, I will return it.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Very weird. The headphones sound amazing with the soundstage being the only problem. I may buy a new amp to see if it fixes it. If not, I will return it.

It has just occurred to me that the problem may actually be a fudged cable. Many Sundaras ship with defective cables and this commonly results in almost mono output. Mine was one such unit.

I would suggest that you remove the included 6.3mm TRS adaptor and if that does not solve the problem, try playing with the connection while in use.

Has not enough power.

Unless we are referring to very different devices, that is simply not the case.

 

[solderdude]

I just got my Sundara and Khadas Tone2 Pro DAC/amp (running it unbalanced which is rated at around 110 mW) yesterday and I'm disappointed with the soundstage. It sounds extremely narrow, certainly more than what most reviews hint at since it sounds almost like the closed back headphones I tried (ATH M40X, AKG K361, WH-H900N) so I am wondering whether they are just underamped or faulty.

Soundstage is something the brain creates depending on the auditory input. Your ears differ from those or others and so does your brain.
Some people hear HP A as having a wide sound stage where others say it is narrow. Could be the other way around for HP B and yet another person.

The Sundara also requires more power than some other headphones and as lows are bit drooping you may need some EQ to make them more enjoyable. This too differs from person to person.

Basically it may be that the Sundara is not optimally suited for you/your ears/your brain. It may be defective but not in 'sound stage'.
That doesn't mean that when others are lyrical (I have seen people going gaga over the HD201) it means it will do that for everyone.

I don't think they are easily 'underamped' unless driven from a phone or USB dongle or USB powered DAC/Amp and don't think it is defective either.
Try it somewhere else or on other HP outputs you could try before deciding it is not for you. Try some EQ as well.

The Sundara is just a decent to good headphone. To some it is the pinacle or best, to others it has no magic and everything inbetween is possible.
That's why headphones are 'personal audio'.

 

[nohomo_sapiens]

Soundstage is something the brain creates depending on the auditory input. Your ears differ from those or others and so does your brain.
Some people hear HP A as having a wide sound stage where others say it is narrow. Could be the other way around for HP B and yet another person.

The Sundara also requires more power than some other headphones and as lows are bit drooping you may need some EQ to make them more enjoyable. This too differs from person to person.

Basically it may be that the Sundara is not optimally suited for you/your ears/your brain. It may be defective but not in 'sound stage'.
That doesn't mean that when others are lyrical (I have seen people going gaga over the HD201) it means it will do that for everyone.

I don't think they are easily 'underamped' unless driven from a phone or USB dongle or USB powered DAC/Amp and don't think it is defective either.
Try it somewhere else or on other HP outputs you could try before deciding it is not for you. Try some EQ as well.

The Sundara is just a decent to good headphone. To some it is the pinacle or best, to others it has no magic and everything inbetween is possible.
That's why headphones are 'personal audio'.

Good information thanks.

 

[BartekG]

I just got my Sundara and Khadas Tone2 Pro DAC/amp (running it unbalanced which is rated at around 110 mW) yesterday

You need to burn them in before making any assesments. The manual says 150 hours.

 

[solderdude]

If that were really needed wouldn't manufacturers burn all headphones in for that many hours before distributing them.
I mean.. if it really sounds poor for weeks/months of normal usage don't you think everyone would be returning them ?

 

[bogart]

If that were really needed wouldn't manufacturers burn all headphones in for that many hours before distributing them.
I mean.. if it really sounds poor for weeks/months of normal usage don't you think everyone would be returning them ?

100% right.

Based on their several reviewed sets so far, they demonstrate competent engineering. So, I suspect that Hifiman is in touch enough with their market to know that people will enjoy them more if they invest in a “break-in” ritual. Feel free to do it and see if you like them more. Won’t hurt them, will dissipate some electricity needlessly though.

 

[BartekG]

Burning in is in the HiFiMan Sundara manual, so the manufacturer does think it's needed and doesn't do that.
I don't know why, probably it's the extra cost.
You don't have to leave them playing 24/7 - just use them.

 

[bogart]

Burning in is in the HiFiMan Sundara manual, so the manufacturer does think it's needed and doesn't do that.
I don't know why, probably it's the extra cost.
You don't have to leave them playing 24/7 - just use them.

Totally understand what you’re saying. I own a pair and like them very well. Just a suggestion to take the manual in perspective - it is written as a combined effort of the engineers and the product marketing teams. Creating an emotional investment in the product / letting your ears get used to the change from your previous set ... they are smart to include that guideline. I suspect it’s not included by the engineering team, though.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Many speaker and headphone manufacturers insist that a “break in period” is necessary but this is demonstrably false. In any practical sense, drivers do not burn in.

Your brain does, however.

 

[solderdude]

There are also cables being shipped with a notice of 150 hours of burn-in needed. That doesn't make it real.

Why 150 hours ? what's so special ? Is that the longest possible time to ensure optimal sound ? How did hifiman determine it is needed ? Was it based on customer feedback ? Is it to ensure not everyone sends them back immediately and hope people get used to the sound first ?
Why would 'break-in' (not burn-in) not happen in the first few minutes ? Is it softening of the pads (so they seal better) or actual membrane that needs to 'loosen' up ? If so, would pre-stretching it in the factory not be easier ?

 

[Quomz]

Shyamalanian plot twist: you are burning in not them! (and water hurts them)