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Do I need a streamer?

Marco54

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Yes,
if you mean that Kii’s reclocking and resampling are enough to assure the best performance, i disagree.
It seems that adding a reclocking sound quality increases. Someone cascades two or more reclockers, with, said, good results. After all music is the function of noise over time. If you recovery correct timing you are done.
Different from analogue audio, where if something is lost (or worse is gained ), from then on is always present.
Excuse the simplism.
 

Trell

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Yes,
if you mean that Kii’s reclocking and resampling are enough to assure the best performance, i disagree.
It seems that adding a reclocking sound quality increases. Someone cascades two or more reclockers, with, said, good results. After all music is the function of noise over time. If you recovery correct timing you are done.
Different from analogue audio, where if something is lost (or worse is gained ), from then on is always present.
Excuse the simplism.

Why should a "reclocker" improve the sound, especially with several of them on a row in a home environment? I don't have legacy devices where an external "reclocker" would be useful, though, but that is sort of the only scenario I see for usefulness. For modern devices, not so much, and if needed I would probably get a DAC with ASRC like the RME ADI-2 Pro.

The following video from RME is quite informative:

 

Marco54

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Right, if you have a modern dac with an implemented good clocking you need only the good modern dac. Gustard x26 and RME ADÌ -2 can be examples. My answer was directed to a forumer who owns Kii speakers - which deploys digital inputs and has one dac for every amplifier ( 6 ). No way to improve jitter at the speaker level. So, or you use a very low jittery source or go for a reclocker that rebuild the correct sampling rate. In my case i don’t know why the Aries femto is performing so badly, but I infer that if a reclocker improves sound quality, the problem was the jitter.
The thread opener uses pc usb > kii’s usb. This chain, in my experience, never sounded good. I’m not found of usb converters, so i can’t speak about the marvel of these devices, but , if dac usb input is good you don’t need anything more. But, in my opinion Kii’s usb input is not able to make good sounds from a regular pc’s usb out.
My suggestion to the opener and Kii owner is to go , for instance, by a device like Pink Faun spdif bridge ( which sports a clock on the board ), or try a dedicated usb board as he hypothesized.
Greetings
 

Trell

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Right, if you have a modern dac with an implemented good clocking you need only the good modern dac. Gustard x26 and RME ADÌ -2 can be examples. My answer was directed to a forumer who owns Kii speakers - which deploys digital inputs and has one dac for every amplifier ( 6 ). No way to improve jitter at the speaker level. So, or you use a very low jittery source or go for a reclocker that rebuild the correct sampling rate. In my case i don’t know why the Aries femto is performing so badly, but I infer that if a reclocker improves sound quality, the problem was the jitter.
The thread opener uses pc usb > kii’s usb. This chain, in my experience, never sounded good. I’m not found of usb converters, so i can’t speak about the marvel of these devices, but , if dac usb input is good you don’t need anything more. But, in my opinion Kii’s usb input is not able to make good sounds from a regular pc’s usb out.
My suggestion to the opener and Kii owner is to go , for instance, by a device like Pink Faun spdif bridge ( which sports a clock on the board ), or try a dedicated usb board as he hypothesized.
Greetings

Why do you think that the Kii speakers handling of jitter is an audible problem? So far you've not presented any proof that so is the case, and in any case, is not relevant for USB in asynchronous mode.
 

Marco54

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No proof other than the fact that removing the reclocker the sound becomes less satisfying.
Kii usb and digital inputs ( sourced directly by Auralic Aries ) perform the same: are good but improving the source side could be beneficial.
Kii are a relatively old project, in terms of dac devlopment.
So probably there is room also to improve the usb input signal, since nothing can be done on the side of Kii’s dac.
It was only a suggestion to a Kii owner, no pretense to be scientific.
 

Trell

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No proof other than the fact that removing the reclocker the sound becomes less satisfying.
Kii usb and digital inputs ( sourced directly by Auralic Aries ) perform the same: are good but improving the source side could be beneficial.
Kii are a relatively old project, in terms of dac devlopment.
So probably there is room also to improve the usb input signal, since nothing can be done on the side of Kii’s dac.
It was only a suggestion to a Kii owner, no pretense to be scientific.

So, you got nothing to back it up contrary to much research showing otherwise.
 

Marco54

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I don’t understand the point. Does science show that in an audio system where the dac cannot be improved, it is useless to improve the source in order to obtain a better result?
 

Trell

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I don’t understand the point. Does science show that in an audio system where the dac cannot be improved, it is useless to improve the source in order to obtain a better result?
It’s about diminishing returns where any improvement is quite simply inaudible for competently designed devices. It’s essentially a solved problem, and do note that RME does not claim any audible benefits with their latest FS improvement that I linked to above.

Your money, unless it’s a very special case, is better spent elsewhere.
 

DMill

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I’m probably out of bounds. But if Kii Three is your speaker. Sure throw a steamer in there. A wiim is $100. You can listen to music while you fold your laundry and do the dishes, or just count money on your couch cause you don’t feel like getting up. If it sucks go back to a hard wired solution For critical listening. :)
 

Marco54

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It’s about diminishing returns where any improvement is quite simply inaudible for competently designed devices. It’s essentially a solved problem, and do note that RME does not claim any audible benefits with their latest FS improvement that I linked to above.

Your money, unless it’s a very special case, is better spent elsewhere.
In this tread the opener, owner of Kii speakers, asked something…..so this is a very special case ( I don’t know if you know Kii speakers ).
No generalization here, speaking only about this particular case.
Regarding the diminishing return, it seems obvious that spending a few hundreds in a chain where the speaker system is around 15k is a great investment ( if the reclocker doesn’t suck ) . > doesn’t suck.
 

HarmonicTHD

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In this tread the opener, owner of Kii speakers, asked something…..so this is a very special case ( I don’t know if you know Kii speakers ).
No generalization here, speaking only about this particular case.
Regarding the diminishing return, it seems obvious that spending a few hundreds in a chain where the speaker system is around 15k is a great investment ( if the reclocker doesn’t suck ) . > doesn’t suck.
Regardless how expensive the speakers (mine are similarly expensive btw) it is bad advice and definitely not a great investment but a waste of money no matter how much you have.

As Trell pointed out the reclocking myth has been debunked scientifically so many times over but it still isn’t dead because some salesmen still fuel the legend to make a buck.

Do some research on this forum and you might learn. Or provide us with some hard evidence to prove your point - you would be the first in a long line who tried unsuccessfully, but who knows.
 
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itz_all_about_the_music

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A network streamer is a SoM containing network and WiFi along with CPU/DSP DAC and transport (Optical/coaxial/HDMI...). There are high integrated SoC's with everything integrated (TWS mobile SoC's...) or boards with picked up IC's to form the SoM. Basically it's any network card (with added DAC). As the name suggests it's job is to stream and buffer original content from source to target and not to alter it in any way and widely used is DLNA open standard for the purposes. This is very different from Bluetooth audio transmission where source is transcoded on the flight to lo complexity loosy BT codec and decoded by target. I personally devide them to embedded and application oriented ones. Chances are your old smartphone is much more advanced streamer than what they sold you as deticated one. Things that make a difference are software and software. That's why Pi board's are such popular choice (even they are bad for the purpose). The most important part of streaming system is central rooter (excluding direct WiFi streaming and of course for international point to point streaming) or better say its constant operating bandwidth it can sustain and QOS (requests handling under pressure).
Currently there are zero quality solutions which would obtain a good network component and everything else including software stack that is good. Worst by my experience would be those with Qualcomm and Brodcom net component's, Cisco and Huawei and (same thing) ware both bad and with horrible software, from mainstream and cheap (arguably those with good support and maintained open stack are not exactly cheap) so far Intel did good and we will see how MTK will do (no high hopes there). So simply buy what ever work's best for you and costs the least.
I found no less than twelve acronyms in your reply. A good reply, but am wishing acronyms where defined as many here (not me) struggle to digest what's being communicated. E.g., "CCA" caused others to decode what was being communicated by "hints".

Is this site a game show? ITSAGS?

Does ASR mean Aerosol Scattering Ratio?

Any hints??
 

Trell

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I found no less than twelve acronyms in your reply. A good reply, but am wishing acronyms where defined as many here (not me) struggle to digest what's being communicated. E.g., "CCA" caused others to decode what was being communicated by "hints".

Is this site a game show? ITSAGS?

Does ASR mean Aerosol Scattering Ratio?

Any hints??

When you ask the poster for a clarification of acronyms it's helpful to list acronyms that the poster actually used in the quoted text. Neither CCA, ITSAGS nor ASR was used by him.
 

Marco54

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Regardless how expensive the speakers (mine are similarly expensive btw) it is bad advice and definitely not a great investment but a waste of money no matter how much you have.

As Trell pointed out the reclocking myth has been debunked scientifically so many times over but it still isn’t dead because some salesmen still fuel the legend to make a buck.

Do some research on this forum and you might learn. Or provide us with some hard evidence to prove your point - you would be the first in a long line who tried unsuccessfully, but who knows.
I don’t know if you and Trell know Kii speaker.
If you know it, you understand that the dac is inside the speaker, so it is impossible to get an improvement on the inputs and dac side. You have to provide digital signal AES, spdif, toslink, usb.
It’s a limit of these kind of speakers ( Kii, D&D, Grimm and in general all active speakers with digital inputs): the digital input section is what it is and you can’t change anything.
In digital audio I don’t know sources of sound degradation other than noise and jitter. My ignorance.
If introducing a reclocking device, between the source and the Kii, the sound improves one wonders why.
Imagination? Lower jitter? Lower noise? Other?
Have you any other explanation?
Your explanation, i suppose, is that I feel a better sound quality all in my head.
Or that I’m a hidden salesman who tries to promote expensive fancy devices.
Time waster
Troll
Found in the cellar the Monarchy Audio Dip, discontinued as is - Monarchy Audio is no more existing - and I tested it.
I don’t know why it works, logic tells it’s a reclocker so it reclocks.
Googling Kii and reclocker I found this thread, so I brought my experience to a Kii owner.
Enough for me
Greetings
 

BDWoody

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If introducing a reclocking device, between the source and the Kii, the sound improves one wonders why.
Imagination?

Absent evidence to the contrary, I go with imagination. Note, claims aren't evidence.

Jitter has to be pretty bad before you are going to hear it, and it isn't like a 'lack of soundstage ' or similar kind of thing.

Here is a site that lets you actually hear it.

 

Trell

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I don’t know if you and Trell know Kii speaker.
If you know it, you understand that the dac is inside the speaker, so it is impossible to get an improvement on the inputs and dac side. You have to provide digital signal AES, spdif, toslink, usb.
It’s a limit of these kind of speakers ( Kii, D&D, Grimm and in general all active speakers with digital inputs): the digital input section is what it is and you can’t change anything.
In digital audio I don’t know sources of sound degradation other than noise and jitter. My ignorance.
If introducing a reclocking device, between the source and the Kii, the sound improves one wonders why.
Imagination? Lower jitter? Lower noise? Other?
Have you any other explanation?
Your explanation, i suppose, is that I feel a better sound quality all in my head.
Or that I’m a hidden salesman who tries to promote expensive fancy devices.
Time waster
Troll
Found in the cellar the Monarchy Audio Dip, discontinued as is - Monarchy Audio is no more existing - and I tested it.
I don’t know why it works, logic tells it’s a reclocker so it reclocks.
Googling Kii and reclocker I found this thread, so I brought my experience to a Kii owner.
Enough for me
Greetings

The reclocker will not improve the sound unless you claim that the DAC in the Kii is so badly designed that a reclocker is needed, which I find unlikely. Perhaps in edge cases with a bad source but then get a better source.
 

Ler0ck

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Taiko Streamer sound a same with NUC. Buy mac mini or nuc/slim pc with audirvana and it’s done
 

ZolaIII

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@itz_all_about_the_music well they aren't mine acronyms or short words but considerd industry standard. Even I think some of them are stupid but they certainly aren't mine. You are right ASR isn't D&R (design - reuse) but terminology needs to remain same. It's better to insist on proper terminology than people using wrong one and mixing things up (like you have right now here regarding power amplifier classification for example) because if they adopt it wrongly then you really have a mess.
In short little I can do about it and I try to give an examples and explanation when I think it's neaded.
A lot of people around here are in some relation to IT or industry so I imagine it's not a big problem to follow me regarding that. Maybe I am wrong?
Best regards.
Actually current Broadcom WiFi 6 offering isn't bad at all and it's seeing some love from developers.
 

itz_all_about_the_music

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When you ask the poster for a clarification of acronyms it's helpful to list acronyms that the poster actually used in the quoted text. Neither CCA, ITSAGS nor ASR was used by him.
Agree, but I wasn't asking the poster to clarify his acronyms (in part, because I knew their meaning). I was, instead, asking the poster to not use acronyms for th benefit of those who don't know their meaning(s) (e.g., another poster who had to go through several posts to locate "hints" about what CCA meant).

So it goes in alphabet soup (i.e.,. SIGIAS).
 
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