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Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?

GXAlan

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For me, I listened to low wattage tube amplifier driving horns at CES in a massive room which I cannot replicate with my Salon 2 speakers and massive amplification.

More recent experience has been no less than three JBL speakers that left me with that impression as well.

I think it is @Charles Sprinkle at his previous position where he once explained that low-TCR wire is designed to decrease thermal and power compression from a hot voice coil, but that it’s not about sustained playback but even transients. This is one reason the M2 bass has a lot of “kick” to it. The most die hard fans of JBL horns will comment on the trade off in horn coloration and the “live” sound.

So it seems not to be the mathematics of amplifier W and dB/2.83V sensitivity alone. The more watts you are throwing into the Salon2’s the more heat that voice coil has to be generating. If the low TCR wire in JBL woofers is able to make a difference from the non-low TCR wire woofers in sounds, and that’s measureable at Harman, it probably will give us some hints into the objective requirements for “dynamics.”

The Everest DD55000 was 100 dB/2.83V with 250W handling and the DD67000 is 96 dB/2.83V with 500W handling. Both do so with reasonab smooth frequency response.
https://www.jblsynthesis.com/on/dem...dfs/JBL-DD67000-and-DD65000-Owners-Manual.pdf

Have you listened to the Devore Orangutan O/96’s? No horns, no fancy cabinetry for dispersion but 96 dB/W. I imagine that similarly energizes the room and people like the sound even though the frequency response is pretty jagged.
https://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/HFNAprArtisanSystem.pdf

I think many people have multiple headphones and some people have multiple audio systems. It would be great to figure out what the best complement to the traditional wide dispersion/smooth Harman curve from a speaker standpoint and how to scientifically identify top speakers in this complementary category.

Good example is the Klipschorn. People love it and it’s been in continuous production for a really long time. Cannot simply be nostalgia. There must be something a fully horn loaded system is doing.

Another example is Magnepan with true ribbons. People love it and it too has been in continuous production for a really long time. Cannot simply be placebo. The line source strategy is enhanced with CBT tech. It measures poorly but maybe having sound that decays at 1/r instead of 1/r2 gives something that is complementary to traditional speaker targets.

I would bet that you would easily be able to ABX a Magnepan MG3.x, a Klipschorn, and a Salon2 setup even if you restricted the audio from 80Hz to 16kHz.
 

tuga

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I think many people have multiple headphones and some people have multiple audio systems.

Even if you'd written audiophiles instead of people I would have trouble agreeing with that. That's post-graduate level OCD. :p
 

DrCWO

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I think it is @Charles Sprinkle
Have you listened to the Devore Orangutan O/96’s? No horns, no fancy cabinetry for dispersion but 96 dB/W.

I read the O/96 have a blue paper cone. I bet these are drivers with very low mechanical losses too ;-)

Years ago I presented my Auduiovolver with this system on a German HiFi show http://www.frank-landmesser.de/messe-hifimuwo2009-11-definiteaudio.html. The driver was a Ciare CH 250-Full-Range driver (http://www.spectrumaudio.de/breit/ciare/ciareCH250.html) in combination with a tweeter horn. It was also a 96dB chassis and it played like listening to life instruments without any speaker, presenting all micro details and that also on live volumes.

I was forced to sell it to an enthusiastic listener after the show. The SPEAKER not the Audiovolver that I wanted to sell ;-)

Here a part of the listening experience translated 1:1 by Google of the journalist (Frank Landmesser) who wrote the article...

"Yim Hok-Man started the performance with his Chinese drums. Explosive dynamics and perfect timing make the drums look lifelike. Not an easy task for amplifiers and multi-way speakers. Thanks to the corrective calculation of loudspeakers and the influence of the room, the illusion in person in front of a playing drums succeeds almost perfectly. The DaCapo's not high-end, but at least very sensitive chassis also ensured good microdynamics and fine resolution. The very positive first impression was confirmed with a blue title and two lighter jazz pieces with singer and piano.
Tonally perfect - anything else would have been the same as a misalignment - and with just as perfect timing, the sound image could be completely detached from the speakers. This resulted in; miraculously not only in my seat; a very vivid and lifelike sound. I was surprised myself, in view of the rather simple equipment, that I really couldn't criticize the playback at all. ..." For more please translate by yourself.

So my question is still not answered and maybe never will. What and how have I to measure to find out what this journalist described?
 
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ctrl

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The driver was a Ciare CH 250-Full-Range driver (http://www.spectrumaudio.de/breit/ciare/ciareCH250.html) in combination with a tweeter horn. It was also a 96dB chassis and it played like listening to life instruments without any speaker, presenting all micro details and that also on live volumes.
This is an interesting and good driver.
In terms of dynamics, this is an extended midrange driver. With +-0.5mm linear excursion, a use down to 150-200Hz is possible for a "normal" dynamic range - lower leads to objective dynamic loss due to the low linear excursion.

The RMS value is indeed low for a driver of this size - should be around 1kg/s.

However, modern 6'' drivers have values that are only half as large and 4'' drivers that are only a third as large and small fullrange driver only one fifth.
So these should be capable of almost unbelievable "micro details" - if the RMS value plays a decisive role.

In contrast, the Seas driver (FU10RB) used in the Linkwitz loudspeaker design (LX Mini and LX521 - UPDATE see next posts for more detail) shows an RMS value twice as large as the Ciare driver, so it would be deficient in terms of "micro details", if the RMS value plays a decisive role, and many classes worse than average 4-6'' drivers - the LX owners might disagree.

As others have said, one should always look at the directivity of the speaker, there should be "special features" in the speaker you described.
 
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Burning Sounds

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This is an interesting and good driver.
In terms of dynamics, this is an extended midrange driver. With +-0.5mm linear excursion, a use down to 150-200Hz is possible for a "normal" dynamic range - lower leads to objective dynamic loss due to the low linear excursion.

The RMS value is indeed low for a driver of this size - should be around 1kg/s.

However, modern 6'' drivers have values that are only half as large and 4'' drivers that are only a third as large and small fullrange driver only one fifth.
So these should be capable of almost unbelievable "micro details" - if the RMS value plays a decisive role.

In contrast, the Seas driver (FU10RB) used in the Linkwitz loudspeaker designs (LX Mini and LX521) shows an RMS value twice as large as the Ciare driver, so it would be deficient in terms of "micro details", if the RMS value plays a decisive role, and many classes worse than average 4-6'' drivers - the LX owners might disagree.

As others have said, one should always look at the directivity of the speaker, there should be "special features" in the speaker you described.

It doesn't make any difference to the point you are making, but to but to be clear the upper mid driver used in the LX521 and the "full range" driver used in the LXMini are not the same. The LX521 uses the MU10RB-SL and the LXMini uses the FU10RB.
 

ctrl

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but to but to be clear the upper mid driver used in the LX521 and the "full range" driver used in the LXMini are not the same. The LX521 uses the MU10RB-SL and the LXMini uses the FU10RB.
Thank you for the correction.
The Seas MU10RB-SL, used in the LX521, is a pure 4'' midrange driver with about 20% higher RMS than the Ciare CH250 and about four to five times the value compared to other 4'' driver with "low RMS".
 

kipman725

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I run PA with big horns and big amps and have clip indicators and level meters. Even pretty sane volume of 90 -100dBa in the crowd relatively close to the speakers will occasionally be clipping an amp on >105dB/1w speakers hooked up to >1kW amplifiers on each driver. If you scale this back a bit for a domestic situation I think even at relatively low average volumes you may still be clipping with the typical 90dB/1W HiFi speakers. As previously suggested an osciloscope will show you if this is the case.
 

MattHooper

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Have you listened to the Devore Orangutan O/96’s? No horns, no fancy cabinetry for dispersion but 96 dB/W. I imagine that similarly energizes the room and people like the sound even though the frequency response is pretty jagged.
https://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/HFNAprArtisanSystem.pdf

FWIW....

I auditioned the Devore O/96 speakers extensively, with my reference tracks, in more than one system.

My impression was that they had a thicker, richer sound than most speakers, but also a slightly more "live vibe" to the sound in the sense that the dynamics of how the musicians were playing seemed to flow more easily. I was continually made aware more of the different dynamic emphasis drummers were putting on the snare and kick drum as they played, on tracks I knew well, that seemed to bring the playing more "alive."

I have limited experience with horn speakers not having owned horns, only heard at stores, shows and more recently Klipsch speakers a number of times at a friend's place, using some of my demo tracks.

While the Devores struck me as having more lively dynamics than many other speakers, it wasn't the same as a horn speaker. Horn speakers usually really strike me as having a very "live-like" present sound in respect to a sense of "solidity" to the instruments. The crack of a snare drum, the drum stick on a rim or cymbal, a blaring sax or horn, they seem more solid and pushing air like a real instrument, as opposed to the more ghostly quality of the usual box speaker. The leading edges, the transients in particular. On an average speaker, I could point right to where horn or drum snare is appearing, but it sounds like I could just wave my hand through it, like a sonic hologram. Horn speakers give me the sense that I could reach out and actually feel a solid instrument.

The Devores had a rich, thick sound, and there was a great sense of "moving air in the room" to make you feel the effort of the musicians. But it was more relaxed than real life, especially the lead edge transients, a softening of the sound vs real life, less focused and solid than the horn-based speakers. (Though, having said that, I found the Devores more convincing than many other box speakers with the sense of clarity and solidity - drums sounded more real to me than on other speakers, but not quite the level of a horn speaker).

Anyway, that's how I heard things.
 

Doodski

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Horn speakers usually really strike me as having a very "live-like" present sound in respect to a sense of "solidity" to the instruments. The crack of a snare drum, the drum stick on a rim or cymbal, a blaring sax or horn, they seem more solid and pushing air like a real instrument, as opposed to the more ghostly quality of the usual box speaker. The leading edges, the transients in particular. On an average speaker, I could point right to where horn or drum snare is appearing, but it sounds like I could just wave my hand through it, like a sonic hologram. Horn speakers give me the sense that I could reach out and actually feel a solid instrument.
That's my impression of horn speakers pretty much exactly. You nailed it.
 

echopraxia

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That's my impression of horn speakers pretty much exactly. You nailed it.
Beyond horns, this description also matches some kind of bass response as well. I don’t know how or why exactly, but there is a distinct difference between more impactful and dynamic bass hits than other systems where the low frequencies are still there but the impact feels more like bass from headphones than bass impacts you feel through your entire body.

One example of this was when I was traveling and eating dinner at a restaurant which I didn’t at first realize had a live music performance on the other corner of the place (not visible to me). The way the bass drum distinctly had a physical forceful impact feeling I could tangibly experience initially struck me as very interesting, since at first I thought it was music played through speakers. I kept listening, but thought to myself that there is no way this is music being played through speakers, unless they have massive woofers or something capable of that tangible visceral “impact” from the drum I was feeling (even thought it wasn’t actually all that loud). Sure enough, I discovered it was in fact live music from real instruments I was hearing.

I don’t know exactly what it is, but I suspect it may be something in the 100-500hz range where even a low amplitude bass impact actually would involve quite high amplitude higher frequencies (perhaps also with correct phase) as part of the FFT in order to effectively square-ify the waveform.
 

Doodski

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I suspect it may be something in the 100-500hz range where even a low amplitude bass impact actually would involve quite high amplitude higher frequencies as part of the FFT in order to effectively square-ify the waveform.
That's my best guess as well. From operating a tri-amp'd home system for some years I noticed that subjectively dialing in the midrange snap helped the bass hits to sound more pronounced and that made the bass more enjoyable. I never once was objective with that system. It was purely a toy to be adjusted on a whim and made to enjoy the sound without getting techy about stuff. Hence it was tweaked exagerated highs, tight bass and midrange horn snap and sizzle.
 

Xulonn

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That said they all sound like one trick pont PA systems to my ears. 15 foot wide girl and guitar, not really my thing..

I had a similar experience at a HiFi high-end salon in Sausalito, California in the 1990's, listening to a pair of Wavelength Cardinal 300B SET amps driving a pair of 109dB sensitive Avantgarde Trio horn speakers. Except that I perceived the size as a 15 foot tall girl with guitar. That perception of size was a new one for me, and an experience I will not forget. However, the system did not really appeal to me. (And I could not afford it anyway!)

Avantgarde Trio Speakers.jpg

Wavelength Cardinal.jpg
 

MattHooper

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Beyond horns, this description also matches some kind of bass response as well. I don’t know how or why exactly, but there is a distinct difference between more impactful and dynamic bass hits than other systems where the low frequencies are still there but the impact feels more like bass from headphones than bass impacts you feel through your entire body.

Well put. That's just what I hear sometimes in terms of the sensation of bass from some systems vs others.

One example of this was when I was traveling and eating dinner at a restaurant which I didn’t at first realize had a live music performance on the other corner of the place (not visible to me). The way the bass drum distinctly had a physical forceful impact feeling I could tangibly experience initially struck me as very interesting, since at first I thought it was music played through speakers. I kept listening, but thought to myself that there is no way this is music being played through speakers, unless they have massive woofers or something capable of that tangible visceral “impact” from the drum I was feeling (even thought it wasn’t actually all that loud). Sure enough, I discovered it was in fact live music from real instruments I was hearing.

Yeah, the difference between live instruments, especially drums, and music through most hi-fi systems, is fascinating.

My father was a jazz musician and music teacher, my mother taught piano, and I grew up in a house filled with instruments - 4 pianos, drums, electric bass, electric and acoustic guitars, tenor/alto sax, trombone, trumpet, keyboards, clarinet, flute...my dad played them all and we played several instruments as well. I grew up sitting in our big basement in front of my brother's various bands playing music, so sitting across from live drums (and then I played in the bands too). The sensation of sitting in front of live drums seemed etched in to my consciousness. There is that "whap!" you can hear of the drum pedal hitting the bass drum skin, and a sensation on the chest and clothes as if a blast of air (sonic or otherwise) is hitting you in the chest and almost blowing your clothes. Accompanied by the deeper "wider" room filling resonance of the lower frequencies. It's just a huge, complex and very physical sound.

I still hear exactly this whenever I stop closely and listen to live drums. Most hi-fis sound like a sonic joke compared to the real thing.

But I have heard the occaisional speakers that remind me more of real drums. Like the old Waveform Mach 17 speakers (photos here):

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/det...ange-speaker-system-13000-new/images/1102384/

Tri-amplified, beloved by Peter Aczel (The Audio Critic). I heard them at the proprietor's home and they sounded so "alive" it made most other speakers sound like they are just trying. I reviewed (a long time ago) the passive version of the speaker and it was the first time I'd experienced something so familiar with kick drums: that papery "whack" accompanied by that burst of air hitting my chest feeling, and a solid sense of acoustic power. There was a similar feeling to electric bass, more like what it was like to feel bass standing near the bass player's cabinet. When I played live recordings of my band, from down the hallway there was an uncanny sense of what my band sounded like rehearsing.

The speakers were very lively and dynamic sounding in the midrange up too, but NOT quite in the way I hear in horn speakers. Transients sounded really solid which gave it some dynamic life, but the body of the instruments sounded less so, less dense, more hologram than solid, where horns seem to be more consistently solid sounding.

When I think of the recording and mixing process the sonic differences I usually hear between bass and drums on a good high end speaker vs real life makes some sense. Typically a bass or bass drum is recorded isolated from the rest of the instrument. And in mono. And then that mono signal is steered to the middle of the soundfield between the speakers. As it was captured in mono, and artificially located, it doesn't have the "bloom" of the instrument in terms of exciting the room. It's very isolated sounding. Hence, what you get with kick drums and bass guitars, on an "accurate" system is more a sense of the drums and bass appearing in a tightly focused spot typically set back between the speakers. It can be dense and focused, but it is "occurring over there behind the speakers" and yes can have impact, but it doesn't have that big bloomy room interaction of the real thing. It sounds recorded.

Some speaker designs may not be strictly neutral, but to my ears replicate a bit more of the live feel I hear with instruments like drums. So going back to the Devores, kick drums not only had that thwack of of the head hitting the drum skin, but there was a bigger, richer, bloomier bass quality accompanying the hits that sort of rolled across the floor and filled the room, more like the real thing, rather than some lazer-focused thing that sat only between and behind the speakers. I've rarely heard drums sound so damned convincing with my eyes closed. Not saying they aren't outdone in various aspects - the Waveform speakers for instance did the hit-the-chest feeling of acoustic power more convincingly. But as a set of compromises, to me it's an interesting combination that gets at some characteristics I hear in live sound sources.
 

Xulonn

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I wonder if this is why I've found every compression driver based speaker I've used to be kind of shouty?
That was certainly my experience in the late 1970's with a pair of custom speaker cabinets and the JBL S8 system with it's horn midrange and "ring radiator" tweeter. Great rock speaker, but way too shouty for most other genres, especially classical. My 55wpc Mcintosh Mac1900 receiver was strong enough to drive them to very high levels.

Mac 1900,jpg.jpg


JBL S8 Drivers.jpg
 

Newman

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I've found every compression driver based speaker I've used to be kind of shouty
Fortunately not all are.
I perceived the size as a 15 foot tall girl with guitar.
Fortunately not all are.

But remember: sighted listening psychology means some people will create impressions like these internally, not from the sound waves, but from contextual neuro-filters. If that is happening to you (and comments like “it happens every single time” are a big hint), then there is not much you can do about it but move on. Oh, and don’t fall for the trap of reporting it as being in the sound waves.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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That was certainly my experience in the late 1970's with a pair of custom speaker cabinets and the JBL S8 system with it's horn midrange and "ring radiator" tweeter. Great rock speaker, but way too shouty for most other genres, especially classical. My 55wpc Mcintosh Mac1900 receiver was strong enough to drive them to very high levels.

View attachment 152592

View attachment 152588
Its very easy for a horn speaker to cross the line into sounding 'shouty'. In my experience, JBL horns tend to be worst in this respect, although some Altec horns can be hard on the ears unless tamed. "Constant directivity" type horns to my ears are the worst offenders of 'that horn sound', and unfortunately so many current horn designs use some form of them. Exponential horns have some technical drawbacks but they are among the most successful candidates for keeping the dynamics of a horn system with none of the shoutiness. Large format compression drivers such as in the above photo don't sound as good to my ears as small format drivers. Large format drivers, due to the much larger diaphragm, have much more rolled-off HF response and realistically need a super-tweeter such as the 075 JBLs above. I really believe part of the magic of a well imaging horn system is to have as much as possible of the audio range reproduced by a single horn. In my system this is 500Hz and up.

I've heard several current horn systems, including the Avantgarde, and to me they all sound like a typical 'shouty' horn to some degree.
 

Xulonn

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But I have heard the occasional speakers that remind me more of real drums. Like the old Waveform Mach 17 speakers

Matt, have you read the blog (LINK) of John Gabriel Ötvös, the man behind the Waveform speakers? This man's journey into and out of the world of high-end speakers is fascinating. He was a fanatic for perfection, and his time in the industry up to his exit in 2001 took a toll on him and his family. Big believer in measurements and blind testing. He still communicates with old customers and some who buy his magnificent speakers used.
Waveform Solo Speaker.jpg

Waveform speakers were quite efficient - I've seen figures like 93.5dB sensitivity. However, John recommended lots of watts in a tri-amp configuration. One of my dream systems has always been a pair of Waveform speakers with a full set of Bryston electronics. To me that would be the pinnacle of a classic all-Canadian high-fidelity audio system - rather bland in appearance, but truly magnificent in accurate and dynamic music reproduction.

However, I assume that a modern system with big Revel speakers, RME DAC, and Benchmark amplification would sound as good - and possibly better.
 

MattHooper

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Matt, have you read the blog (LINK) of John Gabriel Ötvös, the man behind the Waveform speakers? This man's journey into and out of the world of high-end speakers is fascinating. He was a fanatic for perfection, and his time in the industry up to his exit in 2001 took a toll on him and his family. Big believer in measurements and blind testing. He still communicates with old customers and some who buy his magnificent speakers used.
Waveform speakers were quite efficient - I've seen figures like 93.5dB sensitivity. However, John recommended lots of watts in a tri-amp configuration. One of my dream systems has always been a pair of Waveform speakers with a full set of Bryston electronics. To me that would be the pinnacle of a classic all-Canadian high-fidelity audio system - rather bland in appearance, but truly magnificent in accurate and dynamic music reproduction.

However, I assume that a modern system with big Revel speakers, RME DAC, and Benchmark amplification would sound as good - and possibly better.

Thanks Xulonn.

Yes I've read John's blog. It's a great insight in to the industry (albeit he is a strong-headed character, so it's written with a strong personal point of view).

Back in the late 90's I had done an obsessive search for new speakers, hearing everything I could at audiophile homes and audio salons, both in Canada and the USA. At one point I'd heard almost all the well regarded/hyped speakers of the time period (the Wilsons, Genesis, Von Schweikert, Apogee, Pipe Dreams and on and on..)

My quest eventually had me and a friend end up at John Otvos' place - it was in driving distance and he invited me there for a listen to the Waveform Mach 17s in his large beautiful living room (self-built house IIRC). He was always skeptical of audiophile bs, and made a point of the cables being cheap (but sufficient gauge) and he didn't even have Bryston amps hooked up at that time. He made the point they were about as "cheap" as you could get for some decent amps (Kenwood or something like it). Then he played some music and it completely blew us away.
As I said, the speakers seemed to be effortlessly doing what most speakers were "trying" to do: as boxless and "quick/clean" sounding as an electrostatic, but with sledge-hammer dynamics. Music just sounded more real. It was nice that the experience also helped ratify my own skepticism about cables and expensive solid state amplification.

That's why I ended up reviewing the smaller passive Mach Solos, which exhibited similar (though scaled down) qualities. Those speakers were "the one that got away," in that I have had regrets over the years not buying them. In fact up until recently I continued to own the Waveform Mach MC monitors just so I had access to some of the waveform sound.

The Mach Solos are about as rare as speakers come on the used market. Not many were made as they started production just before the company shut down. I kept my eye out for them for decades. THEN...just a couple years ago a pair appeared LOCALLY, driving distance, on the Canadian market. They were the last pair ever made, owned by Otvos himself, and in fact slightly upgraded (midrange), and going for an insane steal price! The problem was it was exactly at a point I was in some real financial pain and couldn't afford them and had to pass. Literally any other point in the past two decades I could have easily snatched them up...but when they actually appeared...nope.

First world problems to be sure, but still...damn!

Anyway, as an addendum: I listened to the Mach Solos at home both with solid state (Bryston) and with a small pair of locally built tube amps, and preferred them with the tube amps. John was adamantly against tube amps, in particular for his speakers as they wouldn't do them justice.
He wasn't one to mince words - tube amps were just going to be stupid with most speakers, his in particular. (Which is one reason I used the Bryston amps for most of the review).

He was right for sure in some ways - the little tube amps didn't have the grip and punch in the bass region on those big 10" drivers etc.
But man was it wonderful in most other ways. When John came to my place to pick up the Mach Solos he begrudgingly sat to listen a bit with the tube amps powering his speakers. Afterward he was left shaking his head with amazement, and saying THAT level of sonic beauty and realism was the kind of sonic experience we are seeking in our playback equipment. Not that he was converted to tube amps, but he at least understood they could help produce some very nice sound even with his speakers.
 
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