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Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?

fineMen

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Because we are a bit OT, may I ask, have you read Toole, first and third editions?

Not the least me thinks--it is about how to gain knowledge and for what purpose.

This started with a quite simple put, yet bold, but unsupported claim by an audiophile, an experienced one.

A pro suggested to start with an analogy. Namely from optics. This was shown to work not.

Nevertheless the term "dynamics" was mapped to "echo-free". Still it makes no sense.

While discussing "echo-free" as synonymous to "dynamic", especially targeting commercial solutions, the arguments left all other aspects behind.

When it comes to Toole I would propose to take the whole into account. Starting at one end of the "circle of confusion", namely how is it made in the studio? Where does it end at home, is the next question.

Is it feasable to even reduce reflections / reverberation, if the sound engineer calculated those in when producing the media?

Is reverberation relevant to dynamics at all?

And the least, really, to talk of oneselves as a machinery that has to be tricked, can read, sometimes, a bit annoying.
 

Newman

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So….no?
 

fineMen

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So….no?
Third Edition gave me relief. No such thing as an 'original'. Nothing to chase after without any hold to grep, floating free space in high fidelity vacuum, weightless.

High Fidelity advertizing tells You, that stereo is about tricking Yourself. The only honest claim in there.

So still, how does an analogy to optics, introduced by an P/A pro, a blurred picture relate to dynamics? How does a specific design, described as being "highly efficiant" correlate to "less reverberant"? Why is the natural reverberation in the musical scene forgotten?

Why do folks relate to the most effective speakers, but forget about the least effective for comparison?

Not the least, my personal experience is, there is no difference in "dynamics" as long as speakers are used within their limitations.

I may appear as an audiophobe, I love music.
 

fineMen

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... may appear as an audiophobe, I love music.
Let me introduce to You: Tierra Whack

... some well known "rap" moment; these quiet pauses in between. As to emphasize what is said/sung before / next. Meaning! Dynamics, and if so why not?!

I love to hear that my current stereo doesn't break in front of full level 30Hz boom-bam! But as it comes to dynamics as a discrimination between loud and silent, no diff compared to my 80dB/watt humble shelf occupying nothings. Current system is capable of delivering 110db bursting with laughter at 10 Watts. Want more?

Audophiles should command science--alone! So many questions regarding the true nature of music! Importance, man, if I only had that much of an overconfidence, I would candidate for president on Mars.
 
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kyle_neuron

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I love to hear that my current stereo doesn't break in front of full level 30Hz boom-bam! But as it comes to dynamics as a discrimination between loud and silent, no diff compared to my 80dB/watt humble shelf occupying nothings. Current system is capable of delivering 110db bursting with laughter at 10 Watts. Want more?
I don’t see the science in claiming 110 dB SPL output at 10 Watts input, from an 80 dB 1 Watt / 1 metre sensitivity. 20 dB less than that, perhaps?

For a start, peak voltage would be more useful. Secondly, sensitivity is not efficiency, much as they are related.

If we looked at a ‘max SPL’ rating for a loudspeaker as the threshold where broadband distortion reaches 3%, things would be a lot clearer. Pun intended.
 

fineMen

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I don’t see the science in claiming 110 dB SPL output at 10 Watts input, from an 80 dB 1 Watt / 1 metre sensitivity. 20 dB less than that, perhaps?

For a start, peak voltage would be more useful. Secondly, sensitivity is not efficiency, much as they are related.

If we looked at a ‘max SPL’ rating for a loudspeaker as the threshold where broadband distortion reaches 3%, things would be a lot clearer. Pun intended.


A misconception, I've got the two and more, namely distict models 80dB/W and 100dB/W simultaneously. I'm not an experienced expert, though. Ehm, when it comes to microdynamics, listen to Noname, Window. The chorus. No distractions from reflections, just "gestalt".

Seems I lough at You ;-) Loud, dynamically, increasing comicality--what shall I do?!
 

mhardy6647

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I had some time -- and some fairly hefty metal strapping -- so... finally... today I did a little redneck New Hampshire frugal Yankee style time alignment of the 'super' tweeters on my much-beloved Frankenaltecs. :cool:

 
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Ciobi69

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Ihave unused Klipschorn,the only time I auditioned them was at the previous owner house , i Will never forget that sound,his room was well treated,the sound was Soo detailed and dynamic that my jaw was on the floor,i have to wait at least a year before using them again because I have to renew an house , horns Are amazing
 

mj30250

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I've been thinking about this question recently, but perhaps in a more basic sense than the OP had intended. My answer may very well be found within the thread, but beyond a certain level of basic acoustic science I tend to hit a wall and immediately get lost.

So here is my rather "basic" question as to the relationship between sensitivity and dynamics, in whatever manner you define the latter:

Consider two speakers with the same cabinet dimensions, driver layout, and component quality.

Speaker A was designed with high sensitivity in mind.

Speaker B was designed with low bass extension in mind, and after achieving that goal, the resulting speaker is down 6dB in sensitivity versus speaker A.

The woofers in each are the same diameter and of similar overall quality. The tweeters are identical and perhaps even the midranges (if we're considering 3-ways). The crossovers are also of a similar component quality, but of course each are optimized for their respective mid/bass drivers.

If you have sufficient amplification to drive both speakers to your maximum listening levels without clipping or audible distortion, is there any reason why speaker A might sound more...dynamic / detailed / lively / whatever, after level-matching?
 
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mj30250

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Agreed, but as stated in the scenario, if at your maximum listening level you haven't yet driven speaker B into audible distortion, does anything else matter from an audibility standpoint?
 

DSJR

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Ihave unused Klipschorn,the only time I auditioned them was at the previous owner house , i Will never forget that sound,his room was well treated,the sound was Soo detailed and dynamic that my jaw was on the floor,i have to wait at least a year before using them again because I have to renew an house , horns Are amazing
I heard some very early KH's a few times (large Croft OTL mono amp driven) and thought them awful with contemporary commercial recordings. Some years later, I was invited to hear an early 90's pair (then six months old) in a local chaps house, Quad 99 driven (I rather liked that 99 system myself). The room was long along one wall and the setup of the speakers meant they looked too far apart. He was thinking of re-wiring them for posher cabling but I told him not to - Why? - because the sound really was really very good in an 'unfettered' kind of way. They coped with modern recordings really well and the main part of the midrange didn't seem coloured at all, only a very slight mid hf 'spike' or 'sparkle' being obvious occasionally and soon ignored.

To go back to the opening post, I reckon most domestic passive speakers would probably need a kW or so up-'em to wake up transients in this way (with obvious safety measures to prevent speaker damage of course), having heard some 'difficult sensitivity' speakers open out hugely, first by going active and then later, by increasing power output to the drivers..

Just me thoughts rolling round...
 

Godataloss

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Agreed, but as stated in the scenario, if at your maximum listening level you haven't yet driven speaker B into audible distortion, does anything else matter from an audibility standpoint?
Well depending on how loud you listen, distortion will creep in eventually. 6 db will require doubling power twice for a given volume. For the same loudness of Speaker A at 5 watts, speaker B will require 20.
 
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freemansteve

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Is there any conclusion emerging for "Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?" ?

My 2c is that efficiency probably just means electrical power needed to give a certain SPL. I think there are dozens of reasons why one speaker system may need more power than another, not least things like porting v. IB, directionality etc.

I totally get the idea of "dynamics", or "fastness", or "trouser-flap (for bass"), or "jump factor", but can't yet see how it might be measured, but I doubt it's about "efficiency" or "sensitivity" of a speaker. Or "speaker glue", unless we are also talking about a laughingly bad amp where the physical position of a transducer's sound surface has little in connection with the input waveform!
 

dasdoing

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let's think only of 2 membranes, one is heavy, the other light. we meassure the power necessary to swing both at the same amplitude at 1000Hz. than we aply the necessary power to both at the same time. will they reach the target amplitude at the same time?
 
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freemansteve

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let's think only of 2 membranes, one is heavy, the other light. we meassure the power necessary to swing both at the same amplitude at 1000Hz. than we aply the necessary power to both at the same time. will they reach the target amplitude at the same time?

F=ma, or a=F/m
 

MakeMineVinyl

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let's think only of 2 membranes, one is heavy, the other light. we meassure the power necessary to swing both at the same amplitude at 1000Hz. than we aply the necessary power to both at the same time. will they reach the target amplitude at the same time?
If the motor strength is adjusted so that the heavier cone is able to be accelerated as quickly as the smaller motor on the lighter cone, then they should be equal. The best of both worlds is a light cone mated to a strong motor assembly. This happens in most compression drivers - at least good ones.
 

dlaloum

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If the motor strength is adjusted so that the heavier cone is able to be accelerated as quickly as the smaller motor on the lighter cone, then they should be equal. The best of both worlds is a light cone mated to a strong motor assembly. This happens in most compression drivers - at least good ones.
Or a membrane of almost zero mass and electrostatic motor.... like the traditional Lotus racing car designs, you don't have to have so much power, if you drop the mass low enough...
 

Chromatischism

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Regardless, if a resonating surface moves "faster", it will produce shorter wavelengths, aka higher frequency sound.

"Faster" drivers are audio snake oil.
 

ernestcarl

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Regardless, if a resonating surface moves "faster", it will produce shorter wavelengths, aka higher frequency sound.

"Faster" drivers are audio snake oil.

I think of the idea "faster" or a (speaker + room) system's "speed" more to do with the transient response.

It may be relatively easy to tell between the ff. measurements as which bass managed system is going to be audibly "faster" :

Frequency dependent windowing (FDW) 15 cycles

speed GD 1.png speed GD 2.png

speed step 1.png speed step 2.png

speed wave 1.png speed wave 2.png

speed wave 3.png speed wave 4.png
 
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