Do Fancy Audio Cables Make a Difference? (video)

[Ropeburn]

And yes, I know this for sure, because you were so careless to post your full Gemini chat in one of the posts above, then edited it. Your modus operandi is pretty clear…

You told Gemini:

“I changed only the power cables between the measurements, precisely to make sure whether something changes or not.”

And Gemini proceeds to manufacture the entire interpretation around...

This is my AI, I understand that I'm not allowed to do something like this...

View attachment 534852

Someone is lying through his teeth here. I think I know who.

 

[voodooless]

It is quite ironic that you accuse me of not having my own thoughts while you use AI-powered extraction tools to build your argument against me.

As I already mentioned, this is nowhere near similar. I use AI to extract and summarize. You use it to build your arguments. The argument here is all mine. In your case, only the the data and conclusion is. Everything else is constructed.

This is my AI, I understand that I'm not allowed to do something like this...

View attachment 534852

That is a blatant lie! And now we’re also back from structuring thought to simple translation? Again a goalpost movement.

@RickS, time for some cleanup I think!

 

[Cbdb2]

I’m done speculating on the theory

Thats all youve done is speculate, you have not found the real reason. Those of us that know how these things work have a lot of doubt that its the cable. There have been many replies giving reasons that are much more likely than the cable.

 

[RandomEar]

Regarding your points, I checked the ground continuity on every cable and it is solid—there is no ground lift or any safety issue, I would never compromise that. About the shielding, maybe I did not explain it right. It is not about blocking the 50Hz itself, but about dealing with the common-mode noise and interference that couples into the signal path. The shield provides a low-impedance path to ground, and that is why the measurements look the way they do. If the cables were doing nothing, the distortion plots would look exactly like they did with the stock ones. They don't, and that is all the proof I need.

You offer the same explanation focusing on the shielding again, but I don't find that convincing at all. For any frequency not 50 Hz or its harmonics - yes, shielding could definitely avoid EMI in some situations. But the mains electric field is already inside the cable and inside your actual shielding - what would you be shielding it from, here? I'm looking for a plausible explanation why shielding a cable carrying a 50 Hz "signal" from other cables with the identical 50 Hz "signal" would yield any benefit.

In addition, inside your power strip and in the wall socket and wall, any mains cable will be unshielded again. The same applies in your switching cabinet and inside the amps and other devices. The shielding only covers the couple dozen cm in front of your rack. That's only a small fraction. You also mostly ignore all the other possible explanations for the 50 Hz peaks discussed in the thread, including a simple ground loop as well as contact issues (e.g. from slight oxidation) with the old cables.

We clearly have different standards for how much noise we are willing to accept in a system. I am happy with the silence I managed to get in my array, and I’m fine with leaving it at that. I’m done speculating on the theory, the empirical results are right there on the screen.

Well, that's not helpful at all, is it?

 

[solderdude]

Shielded cables actually work for keeping EMI/RFI inside a cable (low RF emission and high immunity).
I have done more than enough EMC testing in EMC labs that show this.
It will also help when running mains cables in parallel to RCA interconnects when it comes to capacitive coupling.

For that to work for RF/EMI the shield should not be connected to the safety ground pin of the mains inlet but directly to the chassis. Sort of like an extension of the chassis. That is ... for EMI/RFI immunity/emission.
For below 100kHz it is sufficient to connect to the safety ground pin of an IEC socket.

Realize that a mains wall socket may be low impedance for mains frequencies and harmonics but it is a high impedance for RF.
The wiring IN the wall is never shielded so it radiates RF like nobody's business.
Safety ground is NOT the same as RF ground and not the same as audio ground even when they are all directly connected.

Also a shielded cable will do NOTHING against leakage currents from a power supply/filter in a device.
Also common mode currents will not be lowered by a shield. To do that ferrites are needed (preferably a few loops even). These ferrites will do very little in lowering common mode currents in the 'audible range' and it also depends on the type of ferrites used.

There is nothing wrong with using shielded mains cables but I have never really needed them... also not for high-end high power applications unless the devices they connect to are extremely high in 'garbage' (think speed controlled motors).

For audio ... no. Proper cable hygiene and decent interlinks is all that is needed.
Even pro-audio gear does not use shielded mains cables but just standard mains cords.
I don't have even 1 shielded mains cable in my system nor house nor have I ever needed one in any stereo system (complex nor high-end).

 

[RickS]

Reports suggest this thread needs a review. Is holiday here, so may be a bit but expect it will be back.

UPDATE: thread has been reopened and please focus on technical discourse. Individual member violations should be reported.

 

[RandomEar]

I thank @solderdude for nudging me in the right direction! I constantly thought @DY2 wanted to shield their mains cables from nasty EMI (maybe that was his goal anyway) and he never cared to correct that idea. But after reading the post by Solderdude and taking another look at the rack build DY2 got, I realized what was going on:

As far as I can see, there are line level signal cables (+ maybe speaker wires?) running directly besides the mains inputs on the same side of the rack. So my understanding is that he's shielding his line level cables from mains hum. That's it. Maybe there was an additional ground loop or oxidized connector, but it's probably mostly direct EMI from mains cables into low voltage interconnects. So routing those differently might have solved it, using properly shielded XLRs might have solved it and - yes - using home-made shielded power cables also seems to solve it. Fair enough.

I do not understand why @DY2 used such obscure explanations - maybe using the LLM did him a disservice here. But this at least now looks plausible to me. I mean, if I just cable-tie a mains lead to my RCA cable (slightly exagerrated for clarity) - yeah, there's going to be hum. Feel free to correct me if I'm still misinterpreting that picture and cable setup, though.

 

[Cbdb2]

I thank @solderdude for nudging me in the right direction! I constantly thought @DY2 wanted to shield their mains cables from nasty EMI (maybe that was his goal anyway) and he never cared to correct that idea. But after reading the post by Solderdude and taking another look at the rack build DY2 got, I realized what was going on:

As far as I can see, there are line level signal cables (+ maybe speaker wires?) running directly besides the mains inputs on the same side of the rack. So my understanding is that he's shielding his line level cables from mains hum. That's it. Maybe there was an additional ground loop or oxidized connector, but it's probably mostly direct EMI from mains cables into low voltage interconnects. So routing those differently might have solved it, using properly shielded XLRs might have solved it and - yes - using home-made shielded power cables also seems to solve it. Fair enough.

I do not understand why @DY2 used such obscure explanations - maybe using the LLM did him a disservice here. But this at least now looks plausible to me. I mean, if I just cable-tie a mains lead to my RCA cable (slightly exagerrated for clarity) - yeah, there's going to be hum. Feel free to correct me if I'm still misinterpreting that picture and cable setup, though.

Maybe but 30db difference seems extreme. Are we sure there were no ground loop in that mess?

 

[DY2]

You offer the same explanation focusing on the shielding again, but I don't find that convincing at all. For any frequency not 50 Hz or its harmonics - yes, shielding could definitely avoid EMI in some situations. But the mains electric field is already inside the cable and inside your actual shielding - what would you be shielding it from, here? I'm looking for a plausible explanation why shielding a cable carrying a 50 Hz "signal" from other cables with the identical 50 Hz "signal" would yield any benefit.

In addition, inside your power strip and in the wall socket and wall, any mains cable will be unshielded again. The same applies in your switching cabinet and inside the amps and other devices. The shielding only covers the couple dozen cm in front of your rack. That's only a small fraction. You also mostly ignore all the other possible explanations for the 50 Hz peaks discussed in the thread, including a simple ground loop as well as contact issues (e.g. from slight oxidation) with the old cables.

I'll try to translate with Google Translate, so don't hold me back for grammar.
I was definitely misunderstood from the beginning.
I'm not for or against shielded cables.
I wanted to test exactly whether it does anything or not and what these cables do in my system.
The devices are new, the cables are of average quality, personally I exclude oxidation or other problems arising from the devices.
I actually measured before and after, then I chose to post the result here on the forum, at which point the world jumped up.
I wasn't asked further what was behind those cables, I only read that everyone already knows what I have in the system.
Let's clarify, I have an electrical panel dedicated to the audio system, I have an EMI filter in the panel, in addition to the SPD and dedicated routes for the powers in the audio system. Furthermore, I have a dedicated PDU with several outlets, which supplies part of the system.
Although the graphs show differences between the two measurements, I don't notice the differences by ear.
Because those differences exist, I decided to keep the dedicated cables, made by myself, which were not expensive at all.
Then the world got angry because of my translation that was made with Gemini, I thought it was ok, but I later understood from you that Gemini does not translate, but modifies my text, which I did not know, because I am not a native English speaker.
I hope I have clarified some of the problems.
I have a lot of tests and graphs, I can reproduce them anytime, so it was not a question of some defective wires or plugs. Or so I think.

 

[c4nvas]

Can anyone help choose decent cables for my setup? The sound card i'm using at the moment is Creative AE-9, so i have rca and jacks 3.5mm nothing more.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Can anyone help choose decent cables for my setup? The sound card i'm using at the moment is Creative AE-9, so i have rca and jacks 3.5mm nothing more.

Just regular cables will be perfect

 

[c4nvas]

Hi RexrothPigeon and everyone,

What sound card, DAC, or audio interface would you recommend for connecting the Kali LP-6 via XLR?

I have several sound cards, but they're all internal PCIe models, and they seem to pick up a bit of noise from the PC. At first, I thought my Kali speakers were defective, but I eventually discovered that the issue was caused by a faulty power strip connected to my computer setup.

That said, I still feel that the LP-6s would perform better with a balanced XLR connection. I used to own a Creative Sound Blaster X5, which was an external DAC, but I returned it to Amazon for reasons I honestly can't remember now. Looking back, that may not have been the best decision.

With all of my current sound cards connected through analog outputs, I notice a slight amount of distortion or noise. It's not severe, but I'd like to eliminate it completely if possible. My goal is to get the cleanest signal path I can for the LP-6s.

[Off-topic – sorry!]

I'm also looking for a subwoofer to pair with the LP-6s. The Kali Audio WS-6.2 is currently at the top of my list, but my budget is pretty tight, so I'd prefer to buy used.

Does anyone know of good places in Europe to find used studio subwoofers, or can recommend alternatives under €500?

I'm having this discussion in my thread: Kali Audio LP-6 V2; Wharfedale Diamond 12.1i; ELAC Debut B5.3

You’ve all been incredibly kind and helpful. Thank you so much!

 

[c4nvas]

So, if I understood correctly, the conclusion is that expensive cables generally aren't worth buying because either they don't make an audible difference, or most people don't have equipment that's capable of revealing any difference.

 

[Ropeburn]

So, if I understood correctly, the conclusion is that expensive cables generally aren't worth buying because either they don't make an audible difference, or most people don't have equipment that's capable of revealing any difference.

Nope. Because they really don't make a difference. The "your equipment isn't revealing enough" is another audiophile myth, and a particularly vile and elitist one. It's for people who spent a buttload of money to justify it after the fact, and look down on others, the poors.

Despicable.

 

[AnalogCircuit]

Nope. Because they really don't make a difference. The "your equipment isn't revealing enough" is another audiophile myth, and a particularly vile and elitist one. It's for people who spent a buttload of money to justify it after the fact, and look down on others, the poors.

Despicable.

I bought the common SKW RCA cables for my system, were fine for 12-18 months and. Started having issues. The cable ends lost their spring/clamping/holding force and no longer kept reliable connections. All dozen or so that I had in my 2 channel biamp system and home theater went into the trash. Not risking my gear to garbage.

Bought blue jeans cable RCAs and they’re perfect.

No need for the highest dollar nonsense but quality materials, connectors are absolutely worth the investment.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

I bought the common SKW RCA cables for my system, were fine for 12-18 months and. Started having issues. The cable ends lost their spring/clamping/holding force and no longer kept reliable connections. All dozen or so that I had in my 2 channel biamp system and home theater went into the trash. Not risking my gear to garbage.

Bought blue jeans cable RCAs and they’re perfect.

No need for the highest dollar nonsense but quality materials, connectors are absolutely worth the investment.

FWIW, I've been using the cheapest imaginable RCA cables -- starting with whatever was packed with my gear back in the day, more recently picked up for peanuts at charity thrift shops or to pad online orders to nab free shipping -- for almost 60 years without a single such failure. They're not visible, so cosmetics aren't an issue - and they're almost never unplugged, so durability isn't an issue. Honestly, I for one see no reason to get anything "better" -- obviously YMMV, and props for not falling into the "audiophile interconnects" black hole.

As a reminder, Amir tested one of my thrift shop scores and found it to be pretty much electrically perfect for audio:

Recoton RCA Cable Review (Ultra Cheap Cable)

 

[Ricardus]

The "your equipment isn't revealing enough" is another audiophile myth, and a particularly vile and elitist one. It's for people who spent a buttload of money to justify it after the fact, and look down on others, the poors.

I'm right with you on this one. They're either looking down on you because they think their gear was anointed by the Pope and has some magic transfer characteristics that most gear doesn't.

And when they're not doing that they think they have better hearing than the rest of the universe. Really pisses me off.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

And when they're not doing that they think they have better hearing than the rest of the universe. Really pisses me off.

And invariably they're in (at least) their 60s lmao

 

[Holmz]

Bad to the review…

Since it is marketed as the 72V deal making a difference, I was a bit surprised that @amirm did remove the batteries and test the thing with, and without, the battery power?

 

[amirm]

What were you surprised by?