Do Fancy Audio Cables Make a Difference? (video)

[BluesDaddy]

They would have to be pretty crappy cables in order to influence the levels to an audible degree.

The idea was that he would listen to music like he normally listens: at variable volumes, depending on mood etc. Basically do everything he usually does with the cable being the only difference, since he wanted to get away from the strain of being put on the spot.

But there's nothing to say the volume hasn't been changed by accident. While I understand why you might have inferred that I was saying the wires themselves might impact levels, that was not my intention. But funny things happen when people start messing around with equipment. And it's just a good practice to ensure every listening session starts with the same baseline.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Well the person that changes the cable could do a measurement, sure.
I don't think it is necessary though, because we are not talking about a quick A/B switch but rather living with the new cable for an extended period of time. So the user would constantly change volumes during listening anyway.

 

[respice finem]

There's a major psychoacoustic catch to any audio comparison: The louder presentation will usually be perceived as better. And in the range of +/-2dB, many people will not be able to tell which is louder. I don't want to know how many unsuspecting buyers have fallen for it... So, SPL meter FTW.

 

[BluesDaddy]

There's a major psychoacoustic catch to any audio comparison: The louder presentation will usually be perceived as better. And in the range of +/-2dB, many people will not be able to tell which is louder. I don't want to know how many unsuspecting buyers have fallen for it...

Precisely. If the listening sessions don't at least start out level matched, the listener will invariably prefer the louder from the start, which will bias the whole session. If you're not going to control for every bias you CAN control for, you're not conducting any sort of valid test. And humans can hear as little as a .5 db variance. As pointed out above, it was an old hifi salesman trick to just tweak up the volume a tad (or down) when trying to push a particular piece of equipment.

 

[respice finem]

Another situation where it can happen without fraudulent intent: comparing two pairs of speakers with the same amp. The "predefined" winner is the more sensitive pair, which will play louder.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

There's a major psychoacoustic catch to any audio comparison: The louder presentation will usually be perceived as better.

I'm aware of that but if you read the entire discussion you would know that we are talking about cables, specifically interconnects and (by the looks of what is on his table) power cables.

So there is -0- chance that if I swap the interconnect between your amp and your CD-Player, that I would influence the volume to a degree that is perceivable by the human ear or psyche. As such, level matching is not required. The person in question would not know what the cable is or whether the cabling has been changed at all.

BTW: SPL meters are not precise enough to level match, you would have to do that via measuring the voltage at the speaker terminals (same speakers in each test).

 

[respice finem]

In this case, you're right, though I've once (20+ years ago) caught a salesman (for a renowned British company BTW) "working" with attenuators at RCA sockets to push his more expensive offerings... Just like these, only smaller values: https://www.amazon.de/Monacor-ILA-1020-Pegelminderer-vergoldete-Kontakte/dp/B0057G44WM
As for SPL meters it depends, if you have dB(c) it should do, and for audio shows and such, even a phone app is better than nothing. For scientific purposes the demands are much higher of course.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

In this case, you're right, though I've once (20+ years ago) caught a salesman (for a renowned British company BTW) "working" with attenuators at RCA sockets to push his more expensive offerings...

WTF O_O

Guess humans never disappoint when it comes to being dishonest.

 

[BluesDaddy]

I'm aware of that but if you read the entire discussion you would know that we are talking about cables, specifically interconnects and (by the looks of what is on his table) power cables.

So there is -0- chance that if I swap the interconnect between your amp and your CD-Player, that I would influence the volume to a degree that is perceivable by the human ear or psyche. As such, level matching is not required. The person in question would not know what the cable is or whether the cabling has been changed at all.

BTW: SPL meters are not precise enough to level match, you would have to do that via measuring the voltage at the speaker terminals (same speakers in each test).

ZERO chance? I seriously doubt that. And why not do for the same reasons an pilot goes through a pre-flight check - just in case? While it may be that SPL meters are not accurate to within .5 db, are you asserting that using the same SPL meter in the same location under the same conditions would vary from itself in a short period of time? I find that difficult to believe.

Edit: Besides, doing so would lend an additional level of credibility when reporting out the findings of such a test. NOT doing so, leaves any such test, whether to the positive or negative, open to skepticism. Rigor is the hallmark of scientific testing.

 

[respice finem]

WTF O_O

Guess humans never disappoint when it comes to being dishonest.

This is sadly the case. Had he been smarter, he'd have soldered resistors into the sockets or the plugs, so no one could see them. Since then, I don't take any sales presentation for granted. For a few years it became my favourite prank to take out an SPL meter at audio shows (and often get thrown out). Which goes to show, they must have had something to hide, obviously...

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

ZERO chance? I seriously doubt that.

I know you are being argumentative just for the sake of it but yes: under normal conditions the chance is virtually 0.

Why can I say that? If it weren't, cable differences would have been measured, documented and published by people of the Industry and verified by people like our Senpai Amir long, long ago. There would not be such a ... religious war about the topic if cables could easily influence the signal under normal, domestic conditions. (I know on a stage, a properly shielded, balanced cable can make or break the sound due to interference pickups etc).

If you are discussing cables, a SPL meter is woefully inaccurate, even Amir's Audioprecision will have difficulty detecting differences, so yeah: you would have to do extended measurements in the electrical domain to see any differences.

 

[respice finem]

But meanwhile, speaking of the real world out there and not our little circle of "those who know": How many amateurs buying stuff are aware of the "louder is better" illusion at all? 10%, maybe? How many are aware their listening room will have more influence on the sound than any components they may buy? I'm afraid in this context, contemplating cable influence (apart from outside interference) is a bit hilarious

 

[Katji]

I don't know, probably not more than about 10%, but most would probably understand if it's explained, pointed out. Especially when it's "Try putting the speaker on the table, instead of right into the couch." The thing is though, the fancy cable is a gadget, people like gadgets, it's part of the consumer thing. Comes with packaging that says, you know, "Clearer...gold-plated...hi-res...", it looks better. Just plug it in.

 

[respice finem]

Yes exactly. Everybody would like to have it the simple way, but it is rarely possible. And as soon as they notice it's not optimal, the most will fall for marketing BS, with only a minority looking for in-depth info (and hopefully landing in places like this one).

 

[JSmith]

Looks like you forced ABYSS/JPS Labs to address the topic (in 4 parts ):

I gave the first part a watch... all good, different analogue cable compositions and gauges produce audible changes, this is known. What is not mentioned is there is no need to charge thousands of dollars to create or produce such a cable... I think it is made clear they started the company to make large amounts of money off selling cables for "high end" systems. Sure, they may well have filled a market with demand... doesn't change the fact it's all a rip off though. That power cable on the cable looks like a weapon or strange sex toy...



JSmith

 

[diddley]

A Whip! multi functional power cable With a high end.
I think he is trying to secure the company for his children/family after being exposed with selling inferior overpriced products.Thats why the videos.
But that my opinion,no proof ofcourse.

 

[GGroch]

I gave the first part a watch... all good, different analogue cable compositions and gauges produce audible changes, this is known....

Not so known I think. Certainly the gauge matters, with 16 gauge copper wires you should not go longer than 48 foot runs. Conductor matters, but only so far as it has to conduct pretty well. These basic standards are not what the video is talking about. There is no agreement that the special alloys, silver plating or exotic insulation he describes matter a whit.

The video tells how Joe started listening to cables with blind tests, but despite easily hearing difference in Op Amps, could not distinguish cable differences until he educated his palate through years of experience in sighted tests. He does not say that now, with his more educated ears, he can hear cable differences in blind A/B testing.

The stress Joe describes when he is unable to hear differences that he is convinced exist in blind tests describes classic cognitive dissonance. Something we have all felt when long held mistaken beliefs smack up against reality. I would be interested in Joe's take on why blind listening tests are invalid. As he admits they did not work for him, he probably has a theory as to why.

 

[cursive]

I gave the first part a watch... all good, different analogue cable compositions and gauges produce audible changes, this is known. What is not mentioned is there is no need to charge thousands of dollars to create or produce such a cable... I think it is made clear they started the company to make large amounts of money off selling cables for "high end" systems. Sure, they may well have filled a market with demand... doesn't change the fact it's all a rip off though. That power cable on the cable looks like a weapon or strange sex toy...

JSmith

There was actually a controversy awhile back about some of the JPS labs cables, in that they were essentially just off the shelf cable products such as Eupen, or other cable/wire manufacturers and sold as their own. And that's the bad part. Most of these companies no matter how much they sell their cables for don't truly have the resources to make their own custom wire, and certainly don't have a factory.

Perhaps they could shell out enough to have a custom specc'd design made for them by actual wire manufacturers, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the expensive cables out there are just some off the shelf product, wrapped differently, or with a different sleeve, and nice audio jewelry type connectors/ends. I feel like the people who truly know cable are the big factories/companies who design and make their own wire, but these seem few and far between.

 

[Helicopter]

I gave the first part a watch... all good, different analogue cable compositions and gauges produce audible changes, this is known. What is not mentioned is there is no need to charge thousands of dollars to create or produce such a cable... I think it is made clear they started the company to make large amounts of money off selling cables for "high end" systems. Sure, they may well have filled a market with demand... doesn't change the fact it's all a rip off though. That power cable on the cable looks like a weapon or strange sex toy...



JSmith

I like how he explained his problem with A/B... it didn't work; he couldn't hear any difference. He needed to switch to longer time period sighted testing to understand the differences.

 

[amirm]

Looks like you forced ABYSS/JPS Labs to address the topic (in 4 parts ):

So it took him years to hear the difference between cables but his customers instantly can without said training?