Do Dacs make a difference

[Jimbob54]

Having measured the analogue outputs of my CD players, tablets, Squeezebox etc, I can't see why anyone would need an external DAC, the ones provided are perfectly good enough for transparency.

The only DAC I've ever found to be inadequate was a DAC I bought for £3.45 on eBay, including free shipping from China!!. I just had to buy it at that price, and it was indeed rubbish.

ADCs are different, and even a good few external ones distort more than they should as they get close to 0dBFS, but as far as external DACs go, why?

S.

Largely because he has (or had) lots of DACS. Or maybe the extra outputs are useful. I wouldnt buy a streamer with DAC and an external dac- nuh huh.

 

[wineandmusic]

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Sounds like you answered your own question right there. If the streamer you have bought has a digital output, you can have fun slaving another DAC to it and comparing directly between RCA from streamer and RCA from DAC- both playing the same songs at the same time, flicking a switch on whatever you are using as amp to quickly A/B. Just make sure you match the output levels . I doubt you will hear a difference unless you want to. Try it with that nice Gustard you bought. On paper it should measure way better than the DAC in the streamer.

I actually am returning the gustard (already got my return label and packaged last night) because although it sounds great, i can't say for certain that it sounds any better than the sr6014 internal dac....and someone stated above that the distortion measurements of the AVR should be inaudible....confirming my decision that i would rather have that $600 to spend elsewhere.

 

[Jimbob54]

[


I actually am returning the gustard because although it sounds great, i can't say for certain that it sounds any better than the sr6014 internal dac....and someone stated above that the distortion measurements of the AVR should be inaudible....confirming my decision that i would rather have that $600 to spend elsewhere.

Very wise. Then be happy with the sr6014

 

[wineandmusic]

Very wise. Then be happy with the sr6014

now what are the best tower speakers under $3500 or so (grin)....and don't want space required by magnapans.

 

[Racheski]

They don’t have to measure equally, just better than hearing thresholds. And even then, unless you have an exceptionally quiet room, high powered amps, and speakers capable of very high SPL, something less than that will do.

I don't understand this answer. I was lectured by @pozz about this on the Why ASR Measurements are different . Since distortion in an audio chain is cumulative, if a DAC that is 1 dB above the audibility threshold for distortion vs a DAC that is 15 dB above the same threshold is paired with the same amp that has audible distortion, which pairing will sound better?

 

[majingotan]

I don't understand this answer. I was lectured by @pozz about this on the Why ASR Measurements are different . Since distortion in an audio chain is cumulative, if a DAC that is 1 dB above the audibility threshold for distortion vs a DAC that is 15 dB above the same threshold is paired with the same amp that has audible distortion, which pairing will sound better?

I would bet 100% that the DAC with 15 dB difference in SINAD (85 dB against a 100 dB for example) (with proper 2V /4V lineout) would be indistinguishable under DBT volume matched test when listened at around reference 85 dB SPL average or even louder at 100 dB SPL average provided that the amplifier is operating well below its limits at those volume.

 

[Wes]

Bets are nice, but Tests count

 

[pozz]

I don't understand this answer. I was lectured by @pozz about this on the Why ASR Measurements are different . Since distortion in an audio chain is cumulative, if a DAC that is 1 dB above the audibility threshold for distortion vs a DAC that is 15 dB above the same threshold is paired with the same amp that has audible distortion, which pairing will sound better?

Lecture? Well, if you don't like details...

Learning to set up the chain for maximum quality is mostly math, and at the far end is audibility. There are conditions in mind. Like how quiet your room is, how loud you listen, and how loud your music is. You can make a decent guess and say x is enough. Human hearing is so nonlinear that a random number like 60dB SINAD is just fine. I have no complaints about listening to vinyl, which will have trouble reaching 30dB SINAD after accounting for the output of the cartridge.

The praise that goes to active speaker manufacturers ignores that the chip amps used inside have a max SINAD of ~75dB. And cellphone transducers are engineered to distort gracefully.

It might be good to read Amir's old DAC reviews. He's plain about how loud he has to turn up his headphones and how often he hears differences.

Cutting the rambling short here.

Edit: Maybe this was a better way to put it: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../do-all-dacs-sound-the-same.14136/post-431978

 

[pozz]

I would bet 100% that the DAC with 15 dB difference in SINAD (85 dB against a 100 dB for example) (with proper 2V /4V lineout) would be indistinguishable under DBT volume matched test when listened at around reference 85 dB SPL average or even louder at 100 dB SPL average provided that the amplifier is operating well below its limits at those volume.

It's a good bet. Though it also assumes, on top of all the gear operating in its linear range, that the 15dB difference is made up of low-order distortion like H2 or H3, and that noise performance is relatively equal. But it's still a good bet because I don't see any gear outputting a distortion spectrum with a dominant H7.

 

[Racheski]

Lecture? Well, if you don't like details...

If you read my previous posts on this topic carefully you would not state this, and I find it insulting. I don't understand why you have such a negative connotation with the word "lecture."

Learning to set up the chain for maximum quality is mostly math, and at the far end is audibility.

Can you point us to a thread that demonstrates this math? I would find it helpful.

It might be good to read Amir's old DAC reviews. He's plain about how loud he has to turn up his headphones and how often he hears differences.

I have read plenty where he turns up his Ether CX or HD650 to skull crushing levels.

 

[pozz]

@Racheski Clearly my sense of humour doesn't convey well over text. Just ignore that opening line.

I can't remember a dedicated thread about calculating the cumulative effects across a chain. The discussion is more distributed across the site, sometimes referencing Eberhard Sengpiel's site and its useful calculators.

 

[morespinach]

Dacs are definitely an over-thought item in audio.

How about pre-amps? For example if I put Freya+ before my amp, instead of Bifrost 2, will it be better?

 

[Chrispy]

How about pre-amps? For example if I put Freya+ before my amp, instead of Bifrost 2, will it be better?

Pre-amps can be useful with power amps I have no idea of what all the schiity names mean....don't follow them or use them.