Do Dacs make a difference

[wineandmusic]

So I started a thread awhile ago asking about noise from PC's and it seemed that the concensus here is that noise on the pc/usb makes no difference.
So assume I take that at face value, do people also believe that if dacs measures well, that there will be little or no difference between one dac and another, regarding chipset, opamps, power supply, design, etc....that none of this stuff matters and that a $100 dac will sound the same as a $10K dac provided they measure equally on the measurements on this site?

Also, has there ever been any measurements on an AVR dacs? Or can we assume dacs internal to an AVR will sound equally well too?

 

[Vini darko]

Hi. Amir measures the dacs in avr's. They usually preform poorly. But with so much stuff in one box sharing a power supply it's no surprise.
As a general rule of thumb a reasonable dac will out preform most amplifiers and speakers.

 

[SIY]

They don’t have to measure equally, just better than hearing thresholds. And even then, unless you have an exceptionally quiet room, high powered amps, and speakers capable of very high SPL, something less than that will do.

 

[Chrispy]

Dacs are definitely an over-thought item in audio.

 

[NTK]

Also, has there ever been any measurements on an AVR dacs? Or can we assume dacs internal to an AVR will sound equally well too?

The first graphs Amir shows in his AVR reviews are DAC performance.

It is also helpful to take a look at the FFT graph. Below is from the Marantz SR6014 just reviewed. You can see that the SINAD (signal-to-noise and distortions) was dominated by distortions (3rd harmonic at 3 kHz) and noise floor is quite a bit lower than -80 dB, so noise isn't a very serious problem with this AVR. A distortion level of -80 dB is 0.01%, and is safely below audibility. (The multitone IMD test was reasonable too.) Therefore, I would wager that the DAC of this AVR is audibly indistinguishable from the best measuring SOTA DAC.

 

[wineandmusic]

Hi. Amir measures the dacs in avr's. They usually preform poorly. But with so much stuff in one box sharing a power supply it's no surprise.
As a general rule of thumb a reasonable dac will out preform most amplifiers and speakers.

why would a power supply in an avr make a difference but not in a dac?

My main purpose of this thread is would a dac in a marantz streamer be fine? I personally, haven't noted any SQ appreciation comparing my mararntz sa8005 compared with any of a half dozen or more dacs that i have tried...

 

[wineandmusic]

The first graphs Amir shows in his AVR reviews are DAC performance.

It is also helpful to take a look at the FFT graph. Below is from the Marantz SR6014 just reviewed. You can see that the SINAD (signal-to-noise and distortions) was dominated by distortions (3rd harmonic at 3 kHz) and noise floor is quite a bit lower than -80 dB, so noise isn't a very serious problem with this AVR. A distortion level of -80 dB is 0.01%, and is safely below audibility. (The multitone IMD test was reasonable too.) Therefore, I would wager that the DAC of this AVR is audibly indistinguishable from the best measuring SOTA DAC.

thanks for this...i have an sr6014, so this is what i was looking for....streaming DSD via the maratnz sounds wonderful imho, and i am not convinced the topping dacs sound any better....

 

[Chrispy]

why would a power supply in an avr make a difference but not in a dac?
You say amir meauses dacs in avr's ..i didnt see any on the list, has he measured marantz avrs or marants streamers?
My main purpose of this thread is would a dac in a marantz streamer be fine? I personally, haven't noted any SQ appreciation comparing my mararntz nd8006 compared with any of a half dozen or more dacs that i have tried...

That review NTK linked is a Marantz avr. Power supplies can matter in dacs, too. Can't help you with the streamer but most dacs are perfectly fine.

 

[wineandmusic]

That review NTK linked is a Marantz avr. Power supplies can matter in dacs, too. Can't help you with the streamer but most dacs are perfectly fine.

thanks, i edited the post after op updated marantz avr notes and measurements...i didn't notice any marantz avrs last i looked, but that was a while ago....anyway, thanks...the remarks by op mirrors my observations in comparing it to external dacs....e.g....nothing notable.

I actually use the marantz avr as a preamp to another amplifier for front speakers....i also love the alexa/heos and the audyssee eq capabilities too.

 

[Chrispy]

thanks, i edited the post after op updated marantz avr notes and measurements...i didn't notice any marantz avrs last i looked, but that was a while ago....anyway, thanks...the remarks by op mirrors my observations in comparing it to external dacs....e.g....nothing notable.

I think there's a couple more Marantz units coming up. That they'd be different from Denon aside from their HDAM thing we'll see...

 

[wineandmusic]

I think there's a couple more Marantz units coming up. That they'd be different from Denon aside from their HDAM thing we'll see...

given that the dac in the marantz should be fine, i have decided to buy a marantz streamer dac for my other room...i just love having alexa capability to play playlists, turn up down, next song, power down system, etc...all from voice....the marantz sound great imho especially when coupled with different amps and decent speakers.

 

[Chrispy]

given that the dac in the marantz should be fine, i have decided to buy a marantz streamer dac for my other room...i just love having alexa capability to play playlists, turn up down, next song, power down system, etc...all from voice....the marantz sound great imho especially when coupled with different amps and decent speakers.

There's a lot of very competent gear out there....never wanted to talk to my devices myself, tho I know several that do....

 

[wineandmusic]

much easier to say "next song" or "turn off" than to reach for the remote...Smile...once you are spoiled, you would never go back....jmo

 

[restorer-john]

much easier to say "next song" or "turn off" than to reach for the remote

So when you're playing music at a reasonable volume (loud), you've got to yell "NEXT SONG"?

 

[Chrispy]

much easier to say "next song" or "turn off" than to reach for the remote...Smile...once you are spoiled, you would never go back....jmo

Hell no, I just plan my playlist better to begin with. The remote already has next song skip enabled, too. I hate talking to an empty room...creepy.

 

[wineandmusic]

So when you're playing music at a reasonable volume (loud), you've got to yell "NEXT SONG"?

it seems to recognize your voice regardless of volume

 

[wineandmusic]

Hell no, I just plan my playlist better to begin with. The remote already has next song skip enabled, too. I hate talking to an empty room...creepy.

i have done it both ways, and it was wierd at first, but could never go back now....when i leave the room i say turn off den and it shuts everything down too....also when you don't have playlists, you can make up your own...play jazz, play chet baker, play ballads, etc...no reason to search...everything is so easy....i know most people will say "no thank you"...and i did too, until i was spoiled.

 

[Blumlein 88]

So when you're playing music at a reasonable volume (loud), you've got to yell "NEXT SONG"?

I've messed with such things either using a Roku remote or remote apps for various things on my phone. You can speak normally and it seems to figure it out. I was surprised when first using it. You can be playing rather loud music, speak normally and it will hear you.

 

[Jimbob54]

why would a power supply in an avr make a difference but not in a dac?

My main purpose of this thread is would a dac in a marantz streamer be fine? I personally, haven't noted any SQ appreciation comparing my mararntz sa8005 compared with any of a half dozen or more dacs that i have tried...

why would a power supply in an avr make a difference but not in a dac?

My main purpose of this thread is would a dac in a marantz streamer be fine? I personally, haven't noted any SQ appreciation comparing my mararntz sa8005 compared with any of a half dozen or more dacs that i have tried...

Sounds like you answered your own question right there. If the streamer you have bought has a digital output, you can have fun slaving another DAC to it and comparing directly between RCA from streamer and RCA from DAC- both playing the same songs at the same time, flicking a switch on whatever you are using as amp to quickly A/B. Just make sure you match the output levels . I doubt you will hear a difference unless you want to. Try it with that nice Gustard you bought. On paper it should measure way better than the DAC in the streamer.

 

[sergeauckland]

Having measured the analogue outputs of my CD players, tablets, Squeezebox etc, I can't see why anyone would need an external DAC, the ones provided are perfectly good enough for transparency.

The only DAC I've ever found to be inadequate was a DAC I bought for £3.45 on eBay, including free shipping from China!!. I just had to buy it at that price, and it was indeed rubbish.

ADCs are different, and even a good few external ones distort more than they should as they get close to 0dBFS, but as far as external DACs go, why?

S.