• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Do Audiophile Network Switches Make a Difference (video)?

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,757
Likes
5,915
Location
PNW
I like how that's getting around quickly, have seen it mentioned in a coupla places now....
 

skraz

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2022
Messages
16
Likes
27
Just thought i would share this, considering the size of ltt i think its a great video to have been made for the audio industry.

 

Astrozombie

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 7, 2020
Messages
388
Likes
144
Location
Los Angeles
D-Link!?!?! No!!!! I had a router from them back in the day that never got firmware updates and it was like $100+ originally. And it was also not eligible for DDWRT and all that jazz
 

mk2

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2020
Messages
21
Likes
5
Came here to see if this was already being discussed. It's brilliant. The audacity of those 'modifications'. And fair play to Linus and team for the explanation of TCP/IP etc. and the other technical aspects which is accurate at the level it aims for. Disappointed they didn't look up the source of those weird stickers, probably the local dollar store.

However maybe the joke's on us as it seems Linus is probably responsible for $770 of their profit this year. Maybe a profitable side project just to make stuff for people to debunk :)
 

jae

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 2, 2019
Messages
1,208
Likes
1,508
Nice video, really liking these!

These guys try to compare some switches:

Can you hear a difference? I like this kind of approach.
You could also record the DAC output and compare/analyse the recorded files. Would that be interesting or a flawed test?
Thought this looked familiar...live right now over a year later 'blind testing' many switches with 'measurements' soon to be posted on their website- of the port noise... not the output signal.
 

sq225917

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
1,361
Likes
1,612
The minute they can show an audible change in the output of a connected device I'll start caring. Until then port noise, doesn't even have correlation never mind causation.

And that first test is awful, they could of made the cuts accurately so there was no audible glitch.
 

dscottj

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2021
Messages
47
Likes
70
I skimmed the article they mentioned and... wow. They start out with a fundamental misunderstanding of the job network switches do, and it all goes downhill from there. A couple of guys who seem to know what they're talking about go after them in the YT comments. They asked if there was a measurable difference in the analog out of the DAC and the testers claimed there was, and that they had measurements to prove it.

That was four days ago and, natch, no update.

I was a network admin for the best part of fifteen years. I know how this works at almost every level. If they ever actually provide measurements that show a difference at the analog outs I'll eat my hat. I simply can't see how that would work.
 

delta76

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Messages
1,615
Likes
2,460
Thought this looked familiar...live right now over a year later 'blind testing' many switches with 'measurements' soon to be posted on their website- of the port noise... not the output signal.
of course, it's alpha-audio.net

I am more and more convinced that they are cable believers in disguise - doing fake listening tests just to prove their point, you know, pseudo science.

A switch will not "sound" different, unless, and this is a very big unless, it's virtually broken.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 29551

Guest
of course, it's alpha-audio.net

I am more and more convinced that they are cable believers in disguise - doing fake listening tests that to prove their point, you know, pseudo science.

A switch will not "sound" different, unless, and this is a very big unless, it's virtually broken.

Whoo... you are one sceptic person to think we do fake tests. How real do you want us to be? It's LIVE...

Just check the article. We have measured jitter-performance in a connected streamer with a Wavecrest SIA-3000. And yes... there is a difference. Not sure what else is needed to convince people that only believe in measurementse.
 

delta76

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Messages
1,615
Likes
2,460
Whoo... you are one sceptic person to think we do fake tests. How real do you want us to be? It's LIVE...

Just check the article. We have measured jitter-performance in a connected streamer with a Wavecrest SIA-3000. And yes... there is a difference. Not sure what else is needed to convince people that only believe in measurementse.
uhm, and?

You didn't know or deliberately ignored the fact that all streaming players have some kind of buffer, in seconds if not longer. so even with your jitters (much smaller than microseconds in your "Review", as your Wavecrest SIA-3000 has internal resolution of 200 femtosecond), the players would already have data available and cached. that eliminates all jitters from a (properly working) network switch.
 
D

Deleted member 29551

Guest
uhm, and?

You didn't know or deliberately ignored the fact that all streaming players have some kind of buffer, in seconds if not longer. so even with your jitters (much smaller than microseconds in your "Review", as your Wavecrest SIA-3000 has internal resolution of 200 femtosecond), the players would already have data available and cached. that eliminates all jitters from a (properly working) network switch.

OK... you seem to know everthing that is needed. Have a nice day.
 

MediumRare

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
1,949
Likes
2,275
Location
Chicago
Yes... it is... nothing is for free in life, now is it? If you fund my lab-gear, I'll give you free access.
So I see you conclude phase noise is audible. Can you provide one teeny tiny graph that shows in an FFT or distortion how that is proven?

 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Yes... it is... nothing is for free in life, now is it? If you fund my lab-gear, I'll give you free access.

I'm glad our host doesn't take this approach. Have you noticed that there are no advertisements, and no sections of the site hidden behind any kind of paywall?

And yes... there is a difference. Not sure what else is needed to convince people that only believe in measurementse.

There is no one here that has been chatting with you who only believes in measurements. What most of us 'believe in' is that which is backed by evidence. Evidence has a higher threshold than anecdote, but unfortunately takes a lot more effort to create and provide. One of the problems is that most of us, including reviewers tend to underestimate how much we are influenced by our very natural human biases. Without implementing some simple to ask for but harder to provide controls the results are going to be ignored by those looking for actual evidence, and not another flawed comparison presented as if it's good enough, and it's the best we can do, and at least we tried.

I applaud anyone who wants to start trying to dig through the bullshit that covers the hi-end audio propaganda machine, but doing it with flawed methodology really doesn't do anything but add to the confusion and mess already out there.

From your responses, you seem like a sincere person who wants to produce material that is meaningful, and helpful to those looking to get to where there might actually be evidence, vs another site telling another version of the same old story, by folks who are well meaning but underprepared for the task at hand.

How about a video showing how you learned from feedback given after your first video to tighten things up to make sure you weren't able to fool yourself, and see what your results might be. I can see a whole set of videos, which would get a lot of links here, of properly done testing using proper double blind, level matched protocols. There are quite a few choices beyond AB/X, and results and videos of the different tests would be awesome to see done by someone. You wouldn't even need any more equipment...a simple multimeter should be all the test gear you need.
 

PenguinMusic

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Messages
622
Likes
368
Hi,

This discussion does not seem to be new, does it ?

From what I can tell, people at Alpha Audio did measurements.
And those measurements show a difference between switches.
And if that is true (I will not pay for the results) then I think NO ONE on this site giving Amirm credit for his measurements can question those results.
After all if it is measured the evidence are the numbers and nothing else.

BUT that is not the discussion is it ?
The discussion is totally elsewhere : if there are MEASURED differences, can those MEASURED differences actually BE HEARD ?

And this is where discussion will never end.

Here's what a discussion might be :
"I hear a difference.
- That is not possible.
- Why ?
- Because we made measures and there are no differences.
- OK. But here are the numbers and they show a difference.
- Oh, really. Then that means those tests have not been made properly.
- Hum. Here are the conditions of the test. And numbers are numbers are they not.
- Yes. But those differences can not be heard.
- But I think I hear them.
- That is what you think.
- But I've done blind tests that tend to prove that there is an audible difference.
- Have you done a real blind test with A/B level matching ?
- Yes.
- That is not possible".

So my problem is quite simple : I can understand almost everything.
I can understand people who sincerely think they can hear a difference.
I can understand people that buy their stuff only on proven and measured data.

What I can't admit though is bad faith.
And this is where the discussion leads :
- people convinced that they hear a difference just to claim there is one when indeed they hear none ;
- people saying they only believe in numbers and when numbers are given that hurt their beliefs, saying those are biased.
- people saying they only believe in numbers and who, if someone comes with a claim that numbers do not tell the whole story, reply that the test has not been made proprerly and ask for "subjective" test conditions that are simply impossible to achieve... which is of course super convenient for never having to change your own beliefs.

Before I came to this site, I was convinced that I was hearing huge differences between power supplies, cables, DAC's...
What I learned here is to try to listen in the best good faith.
Do I really hear a difference ?
And I must say that asking myself that only question made me save a lot of money...
Because most of the time I can't hear any difference.
Even if I would like to hear one to justify the buying of a device that looks good :cool:

Like : right now I am listening to music on a rig that costed me EXACTLY 349$.
I named a Raspberry Pi4 (249$) + AK4493 powered DAC that includes a small headphone jack (100$).
The thing plays music from a mini-PC running Linux Arch with an Emby server running on it.
The mini-PC costed 240€. The most money I spend was for... storage :)
AND of course for the headphone : a Dan Clark Aeon that I bought after reading the reviews on this site... And I DO NOT REGRET buying it.

Is there a difference between that rig and my seprarated streamer + my separated DAC + my separated headphone amp ? (do I have to tell that is costs A LOT MORE ?)
If I push volume to the max, yes... The combo can play a lot louder.
But sticking at the volumes that I listen to, I would be in serious difficulty to tell them apart...

What I also learned from this site is that people should not tell that a device is better than the other.
But that, what they HEAR (or think they hear, I do not care) they simply like that better.
And that is acceptable.

And the only thing that I think is acceptable is that no one tries to force his views on anyone else.
Tolerance may be what we need more in these days and age.
Let's start here.
And if people are convinced that they enjoy their music more when it's played over a 3k€ network switch (I personnaly have a Linksys that I bought for 28€ on Amazon) then let them believe it.
And if you have a chance to give their system a listen, then just go there and listen in all good faith and ask your self if you are hearing a difference. Maybe you'll be surprised...

And when that is all done, just sit back, listen to your music and enjoy it.
Over a system that measures superbly good.
Over a system that looks nice.
Over a system that costs a fortune.

As long as you really enjoy it and do not try to convince anyone that your system is better than his, that's OK and you will be the happiest man on earth.
The one who enjoys music whereever it comes from.
After all, that is all sound is about in the end, is it not ?

Regards.
 
Last edited:

raif71

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
2,333
Likes
2,535
Hi,

This discussion does not seem to be new, does it ?

From what I can tell, people at Alpha Audio did measurements.
And those measurements show a difference between switches.
And if that is true (I will not pay for the results) then I think NO ONE on this site giving Amirm credit for his measurements can question those results.
After all if it is measured the evidence are the numbers and nothing else.

BUT that is not the discussion is it ?
The discussion is totally elsewhere : if there are MEASURED differences, can those MEASURED differences actually BE HEARD ?

And this is where discussion will never end.

Here's what a discussion might be :
"I hear a difference.
- That is not possible.
- Why ?
- Because we made measures and there are no differences.
- OK. But here are the numbers and they show a difference.
- Oh, really. Then that means those tests have not been made properly.
- Hum. Here are the conditions of the test. And numbers are numbers are they not.
- Yes. But those differences can not be heard.
- But I think I hear them.
- That is what you think.
- But I've done blind tests that tend to prove that there is an audible difference.
- Have you done a real blind test with A/B level matching ?
- Yes.
- That is not possible".

So my problem is quite simple : I can understand almost everything.
I can understand people who sincerely think they can hear a difference.
I can understand people that buy their stuff only on proven and measured data.

What I can't admit though is bad faith.
And this is where the discussion leads :
- people convinced that they hear a difference just to claim there is one when indeed they hear none ;
- people saying they only believe in numbers and when numbers are given that hurt their beliefs, saying those are biased.
- people saying they only believe in numbers and who, if someone comes with a claim that numbers do not tell the whole story, reply that the test has not been made proprerly and ask for "subjective" test conditions that are simply impossible to achieve... which is of course super convenient for never having to change your own beliefs.

Before I came to this site, I was convinced that I was hearing huge differences between power supplies, cables, DAC's...
What I learned here is to try to listen in the best good faith.
Do I really hear a difference ?
And I must say that asking myself that only question made me save a lot of money...
Because most of the time I can't hear any difference.
Even if I would like to hear one to justify the buying of a device that looks good :cool:

Like : right now I am listening to music on a rig that costed me EXACTLY 349$.
I named a Raspberry Pi4 (249$) + AK4493 powered DAC that includes a small headphone jack (100$).
The thing plays music from a mini-PC running Linux Arch with an Emby server running on it.
The mini-PC costed 240€. The most money I spend was for... storage :)
AND of course for the headphone : a Dan Clark Aeon that I bought after reading the reviews on this site... And I DO NOT REGRET buying it.

Is there a difference between that rig and my seprarated streamer + my separated DAC + my separated headphone amp ? (do I have to tell that is costs A LOT MORE ?)
If I push volume to the max, yes... The combo can play a lot louder.
But sticking at the volumes that I listen to, I would be in serious difficulty to tell them apart...

What I also learned from this site is that people should not tell that a device is better than the other.
But that, what they HEAR (or think they hear, I do not care) they simply like that better.
And that is acceptable.

And the only thing that I think is acceptable is that no one tries to force his views on anyone else.
Tolerance may be what we need more in these days and age.
Let's start here.
And if people are convinced that they enjoy their music more when it's played over a 3k€ network switch (I personnaly have a Linksys that I bought for 28€ on Amazon) then let them believe it.
And if you have a chance to give their system a listen, then just go there and listen in all good faith and ask your self if you are hearing a difference. Maybe you'll be surprised...

And when that is all done, just sit back, listen to your music and enjoy it.
Over a system that measures superbly good.
Over a system that looks nice.
Over a system that costs a fortune.

As long as you really enjoy it and do not try to convince anyone that your system is better than his, that's OK and you will be the happiest man on earth.
The one who enjoys music whereever it comes from.
After all, that is all sound is about in the end, is it not ?

Regards.
I'm sure people already realize this and have said that, this is a sound advice.
 

Geert

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
1,938
Likes
3,526
The discussion is totally elsewhere : if there are MEASURED differences, can those MEASURED differences actually BE HEARD ?
At the time the test was done you could also download the recordings. (You probably still can if you pay for it). I used them for a blind test, which I failed... I would like to see the Aplha guys do this test.
 
Top Bottom