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Do any DACs apart from RME have equal-loudness features?

Soniclife

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I'm going to try creating 1 or 2 of the RME curves in roon and see how I feel when I switch them in. +10 dB lift at each end is much more than I expected, working out the 0db setting will be interesting.
 

Willem

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I am very pleased with this RME ADI option, and it works very well. What one should realize of course is that the user has to adjust for the size of the room, th epower of the amplifier and the sensitivity of the speakers. If, like me, you have inefficient speakers in a large room you have to turn up volume quite a bit and the loudness function then assumes that you are listening at loud levels, which you are not really doing. So I raised the reference level at which the loudness function cuts in, and also the amount of compensation (I only did this for the bass frequencies). Anyway, the result is excellent. And this is not the only useful function the ADI has. I also needed the balance control, the parametric filters and some tone control to approximate the Harman curve. All these options are modern implementations of traditional pre amplifier controls that were ditched by the craze for the shortest signal path. These modern implementations are even better than the old ones.
 

pozz

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Ideally, everyone would measure their personal equal-loudness curves and import them into the unit, although these shift all the time because of fatigue, stress, abd even year by year as you get older (minutely, but they do). This would be especially important for those with hearing damage or age-related hearing loss.
 

pozz

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If, like me, you have inefficient speakers in a large room you have to turn up volume quite a bit and the loudness function then assumes that you are listening at loud levels, which you are not really doing. So I raised the reference level at which the loudness function cuts in, and also the amount of compensation (I only did this for the bass frequencies).
This is a really intelligent adjustment.
 
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Sir Sanders Zingmore

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I see no reason that if RME can do it roon cannot do it easier with it's full Windows app, and interface.
Roon's explanation is this:

"The main barrier to doing this in Roon is that Roon does not have an internal volume control–in our architecture, volume is always endpoint based. So while you could easily do a perceptual EQ (even in PEQ/Convolution features today), getting it to change with volume would be a bit trickier."

There's a thread on it in their forum. I understand their reasoning
 

mansr

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Any AVR with Audyssey processing has this feature. I guess that isn't audiophile approved, though.
 

ernestcarl

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Roon's explanation is this:

"The main barrier to doing this in Roon is that Roon does not have an internal volume control–in our architecture, volume is always endpoint based. So while you could easily do a perceptual EQ (even in PEQ/Convolution features today), getting it to change with volume would be a bit trickier."

There's a thread on it in their forum. I understand their reasoning

I don't have Roon, but the way I do it via JRiver is as follows:

In a multizone home audio system, each zone also has its own dedicated DAC (I did that, anyhows). So then I can set my levels and loudness settings independently between speaker systems/zones. I have different Reference Volume and Level Calibration settings for each zone. Volume is adjusted in the remote app and zones can be switched/linked together as needed. Loudness DSP and EQ between zones are basically not the same, but their default volume calibration level is very close. So if I set 80% volume in my home theatre, it will sound pretty much close to the same level at 80% in my family room. The manual volume knob/control for each system is set at max/default locally in their position. Levels is controlled centrally and digitally in the HTPC server itself via remote.
 

Soniclife

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Roon's explanation is this:

"The main barrier to doing this in Roon is that Roon does not have an internal volume control–in our architecture, volume is always endpoint based. So while you could easily do a perceptual EQ (even in PEQ/Convolution features today), getting it to change with volume would be a bit trickier."

There's a thread on it in their forum. I understand their reasoning
I don't understand that, they do have an internal volume control, it can control fixed output devices using digital attenuation, and with quite a few endpoints it can control that devices internal volume.
 

ernestcarl

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I don't have Roon, but the way I do it via JRiver is as follows:

In a multizone home audio system, each zone also has its own dedicated DAC (I did that, anyhows). So then I can set my levels and loudness settings independently between speaker systems/zones. I have different Reference Volume and Level Calibration settings for each zone. Volume is adjusted in the remote app and zones can be switched/linked together as needed. Loudness DSP and EQ between zones are basically not the same, but their default volume calibration level is very close. So if I set 80% volume in my home theatre, it will sound pretty much close to the same level at 80% in my family room. The manual volume knob/control for each system is set at max/default locally in their position. Levels is controlled centrally and digitally in the HTPC server itself via remote.

Screenshots from JRemote application on smartphone:
1575733612873.jpeg

You can add as many zones as you want/need. Link and unlink zones and/or switch between zones.

1575733688204.jpeg

Change DAC device for each zone... for exampe, I have two DACs in my Family Room and I can choose whichever one I want to use from here.

Each zone's volume, Loudness DSP vol. reference and EQ is independent from the others:
1575733778133.jpeg


1575733855716.jpeg


1575733860288.jpeg


The more devices you have running in parallel takes a toll on the PC processor quite a bit -- with all the extra DSP running per zone, though -- so you need a fairly fast/powerful PC.
 

ernestcarl

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Recent discussion about our perception of loudness was uploaded to the Audioholics YT channel. It might be of interest to some:


An image of my own measured loudness "curve" compensation contours in on my 5.1ch system is posted here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...is-your-favorite-house-curve.2382/post-270288

Compression of my sub bass driver starts around 104dB. You absolutely do not want the curve compensation to continue going up forever -- only up to a certain level -- in my case it flattens out at around 90dB.
 
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JohnYang1997

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Applying the curve is wrong. Only bass region can be used. You have the gain in 3khz in nature, if you subtract it, it's wrong and unnatural.
 

ernestcarl

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Applying the curve is wrong. Only bass region can be used. You have the gain in 3khz in nature, if you subtract it, it's wrong and unnatural.

Hi, John, do you mean to say the treble? Ahem, subjectively here, it does not sound wrong or unnatural to my ears at all. Although, I do admit, it would be nice if we could adjust JRIver's algorithm manually -- e.g. disable treble compensation curve, reduce or increase bass compensation, and the like... However, overall, to me the balance is good enough. If you watched the video, you will know that the research on loudness isn't as polished as some proponents might suggest. There is no hard and fast rule that says treble should never be compensated, otherwise it would sound wrong -- it could even be possible the the speakers' treble in your scenario may make the compensation sound worse than it really is. To me, with my KH120s, it sounds absolutely perfect. NATURAL. So, no, I don't agree with you there.
 

JohnYang1997

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Hi, John, do you mean to say the treble? Ahem, subjectively here, it does not sound wrong or unnatural to my ears at all. Although, I do admit, it would be nice if we could adjust JRIver's algorithm manually -- e.g. disable treble compensation curve, reduce or increase bass compensation, and the like... However, overall, to me the balance is good enough. If you watched the video, you will know that the research on loudness isn't as polished as some proponents might suggest. There is no hard and fast rule that says treble should never be compensated, otherwise it would sound wrong.
Reproduction has rule of course. If a wall is flat, you don't carve it to suit your hand to feel flat. Simple.
If you prefer the sound of recessed 3khz range then fine you like it. But it doesn't reproduce the sound as recorded.
 

ernestcarl

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Reproduction has rule of course. If a wall is flat, you don't carve it to suit your hand to feel flat. Simple.
If you prefer the sound of recessed 3khz range then fine you like it. But it doesn't reproduce the sound as recorded.

1575737940708.png


Sorry, at what level do you see a huge recess at that frequency again?
 

JohnYang1997

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G05.jpg

You can take this picture as reference in the future. To everyone else, do not use the raw equal loudness contour but the relative loudness contour.
 
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Sir Sanders Zingmore

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Screenshots from JRemote application on smartphone:
View attachment 41646
You can add as many zones as you want/need. Link and unlink zones and/or switch between zones.

View attachment 41647
Change DAC device for each zone... for exampe, I have two DACs in my Family Room and I can choose whichever one I want to use from here.

Each zone's volume, Loudness DSP vol. reference and EQ is independent from the others:
View attachment 41648

View attachment 41649

View attachment 41650

The more devices you have running in parallel takes a toll on the PC processor quite a bit -- with all the extra DSP running per zone, though -- so you need a fairly fast/powerful PC.

I appreciate that JRiver can do it. Unfortunately after purchasing a lifetime membership, I’d prefer to stick with Roon
 
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