DO ALL DACS SOUND THE SAME??

[Roland68]

And also consider the influence of sites like these that pushed the industry towards more openness of data and more focus on engineering excellence, often to the chagrin of the established brands that have been getting by with creating sub-par performing hardware for decades.

Did anyone force these manufacturers to do this?
It's always been a bad idea to price products too high for their performance. This opens the barn doors to cheaper and better devices.

I can still remember how, in the 80s and 90s, dealers would place their Proton, NAD, and Cambridge Audio CD players, amplifiers, and even DACs in different rooms than the more expensive products.
There were reasons for this.

 

[rocksteady]

That's exactly what's often done: they're selling an illusion.
But there are also sound devices, whether intentional or incompetent.

We often conduct very strictly controlled, blinded tests and have tested various DAPs ranging from approximately €150 to €4000.
The one for €4000 sounded somewhat worse for all of them; there were only marginal differences between an older Pioneer with 2 x ES9018xx and a Fiio M15 with 2 x AK4499EQ.
This also matched my experience at a headphone trade fair, where I listened to many DAPs in all price ranges, with very slight differences, and the more expensive ones weren't necessarily better.

Who's WE?

 

[rocksteady]

No your not, your just a classical “science by menu” kind of person: accept it whether it aligns, ignore it when not.

It's You're, not Your...

 

[drewdawg999]

I prefer AKM over ESS, the biggest reason being they value DSD, and put DSD Direct on the chip. With analytical listening, there may be trouble discerning the difference between DSD and PCM, but subjectively DSD makes me happier, puts me in a better mood, and makes me groove harder. I may be biased by the gigantic file sizes and huge sampling rates, but I don't care, it just plain makes me happy.

Also this Velvet sound business, it makes me happy as well. My DAC, the SMSL D-6, uses the entry-level Velvet chip, but it works for me. Not that I could pass a DBT for redbook, between the D-6 and the DO100, and couldn't describe the differences. It's some subliminal feeling, just feels better, more musical in my heart. When I switch between DSD Direct and preamp mode, I believe the difference is noticeable, within the limits of audibility.

YMMV, mainly since most could care less for DSD. I love DSD, but I love redbook too, and that's where the money's at. I wonder if Velvet sound and DSD give me more dopamine pleasure, would love to be able to show brain activity to see if there's a difference there.

 

[TTT15]

The debate will continue to go round in endless circles unless there is more blind testing research. It will also continue to reduce in theoretical significance at the margin as data processing gets faster. However, as the speaker and headphone research shows there will never be any absolute definitive answers due to natural human preferences. The only measurement then that ultimately matters is the individual human enjoyment if that could be measured. Meanwhile only more blind testing research could potentially move the debate forward.

 

[Roland68]

Who's WE?

This refers to a group of people with a technical background who are working on a project that deals with various phenomena in the audio field. We conduct completely blinded tests to determine whether there are audible differences.

The debate will continue to go round in endless circles unless there is more blind testing research. It will also continue to reduce in theoretical significance at the margin as data processing gets faster. However, as the speaker and headphone research shows there will never be any absolute definitive answers due to natural human preferences. The only measurement then that ultimately matters is the individual human enjoyment if that could be measured. Meanwhile only more blind testing research could potentially move the debate forward.

We have conducted many blind tests on this topic over the last 25 years, and in my experience, the implementation of the DAC chip and the analog circuitry behind it are more crucial than the DAC chip itself.

 

[JSmith]

The debate will continue to go round in endless circles unless there is more blind testing research.

When 2 DAC's measure well and similarly, there is no point ABXing them, as we already know they're transparent with noise and distortion below the threshold of general human hearing.

One might be able to find a extremely minor difference between filters, if they're a trained listener... difference doesn't equal a preference though.

If you get a decent ADC, you can capture the analog output of 2 DAC's (level matched, same test source) and null test/compare the 2 files using Deltawave which time aligns and phase aligns the two captures to eliminate drift or clock differences.;

DeltaWave Audio Null Comparator | DeltaWave documentation

deltaw.org

JSmith

 

[Westsounds]

I had the ESS and AKM versions of the RME ADI no difference at all compared back to back.
Keith

You probably didn’t burn them in properly tho

 

[Purité Audio]

The debate will continue to go round in endless circles unless there is more blind testing research. It will also continue to reduce in theoretical significance at the margin as data processing gets faster. However, as the speaker and headphone research shows there will never be any absolute definitive answers due to natural human preferences. The only measurement then that ultimately matters is the individual human enjoyment if that could be measured. Meanwhile only more blind testing research could potentially move the debate forward.

You will only be convinced if you conduct the unsighted/level matched comparison for yourself.
Keith

 

[Roland68]

You will only be convinced if you conduct the unsighted/level matched comparison for yourself.
Keith

But even that sometimes only lasts a few weeks or even days.
I've seen it happen several times: people who participated in such blind tests and had to admit they couldn't hear a difference, or even that the highly praised and ridiculously overpriced device actually sounded worse, reverted to their old habits after a while. Even after the third time.

On the one hand, we have to accept that we can't save everyone; on the other hand, we also have to realize that it's not our loss if someone wants to chase after delusions or snake oil.

 

[thedeaftones]

My experience with some not all ess dacs do sound slightly different, I would assume its to do with the implementation..... .
Try this test track......if the "s" sound natural you have a good implementation.....if it sounds exaggerated=bad implementation. Some topping/smsl struggle with this.

 

[Svend P]

My experience with some not all ess dacs do sound slightly different, I would assume its to do with the implementation..... .
Try this test track......if the "s" sound natural you have a good implementation.....if it sounds exaggerated=bad implementation. Some topping/smsl struggle with this.

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[thedeaftones]

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Oh. Didn't know this. Must be my hearing.....or system.

 

[Svend P]

Oh. Didn't know this. Must be my hearing.....or system.

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[thedeaftones]

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes just been reading this. I was wondering that some topping dacs have different filters for altering sound as per topping manual, going by the measurements of these filters whether on or of makes different measurements but still a transparent measurement according to ASR , so how come they sound slightly different? So technically they are designed to sound different but still within transparency figures? All info on the ASR site.

 

[Purité Audio]

The filters aren’t adding audible distortion, the NOS one ( if there is an NOS variant) may roll off the high H/F.
Which you won’t hear unless you are young.
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

But even that sometimes only lasts a few weeks or even days.
I've seen it happen several times: people who participated in such blind tests and had to admit they couldn't hear a difference, or even that the highly praised and ridiculously overpriced device actually sounded worse, reverted to their old habits after a while. Even after the third time.

On the one hand, we have to accept that we can't save everyone; on the other hand, we also have to realize that it's not our loss if someone wants to chase after delusions or snake oil.

Completely agree, my point was rather that you can ‘debate’ until the cows come home but to be convinced you actually have to do it for yourself.
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

My experience with some not all ess dacs do sound slightly different, I would assume its to do with the implementation..... .
Try this test track......if the "s" sound natural you have a good implementation.....if it sounds exaggerated=bad implementation. Some topping/smsl struggle with this.

No they don’t.
Keith

 

[TTT15]

When 2 DAC's measure well and similarly, there is no point ABXing them, as we already know they're transparent with noise and distortion below the threshold of general human hearing.

One might be able to find a extremely minor difference between filters, if they're a trained listener... difference doesn't equal a preference though.

If you get a decent ADC, you can capture the analog output of 2 DAC's (level matched, same test source) and null test/compare the 2 files using Deltawave which time aligns and phase aligns the two captures to eliminate drift or clock differences.;

DeltaWave Audio Null Comparator | DeltaWave documentation

deltaw.org

JSmith

Yes agree, if there are any potential differences I can only see them coming from the interpolation filters and then if there are any differences at all I would only expect them to be subtle differences which are only apparent on revealing transducers in ideal conditions which may or may not be preferable. Ie irrelevant for most people in most circumstances if any.

 

[TTT15]

You will only be convinced if you conduct the unsighted/level matched comparison for yourself.
Keith

Agreed or if independent tests of a particular set up which isn’t available in practice. Certainly not perceived any differences at hifi shows.