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DO ALL DACS SOUND THE SAME??

Definitely and clearly distinguishable; I've tried it myself.
One has a sheet steel casing, the other a relatively thick aluminum casing. They definitely sound different when you hit them, although the DO300EX sounds better to me, as the D400 Pro sounds a bit muffled ;) .
But the fact IS that the DO300 EX and the D400 PRO sound different for your and for me.
I prefered that D400 PRO and you the DO300 EX, a Matter of taste, or maybe of sinergy with the rest of the components of our systems.
I have my D400 PRO coupled with a Marantz PM 6007 integrated amp (the cheapest one on the Marantz range when I got it in 2022, yet It sounds fine to me), a pair of KEF Q550, again, the cheapest floor standing speakers on the KEF range when I got them on Spring 2024. Source is a Sony UBP X-8OO M2 with its HDMI Port 2 connected to the Chinese HDMI audio extractor that unprotects both DSD and High Rez PCM from BD-AUDIO and DVD-AUDIO, and its I²S output connected vía HDMI to the I²S input from the D400 PRO.
As you see, the gear on my HiFi system is nothing fancy, but revealing enough to tell one DAC from the other.
And I had both connected to The PM 6007 at the same time. I got Amazon Spain to return the DO300 EX and got the D400 PRO. I got the D400 PRO before I returned the DO300 EX, so I had the chance to compare these two.
I compared them vía S/PDIF. I put an RCA Y connector so I could split the S/PDIF output or the Sony UBP X-8OO in two, I didn't know if this would work but It did.
I fed the same digital signal simultaneously to the D400 PRO and the DO300 EX, I did this test with different kinds of music, from Hard Rock (mainly Van Halen, I know their albums very very well, the 2015 192/24 Roth era digital downloads and the 2023 96/24 Sammy era digital downloads), to orchestral movie soundtracks (the Star Wars 2017, or was It 2018? 192/24 digital downloads, Star Trek The Motion Picture 3 CD set from 2012, The Stargate and Independence Day and Stargate 2 CD sets relealed by La La Land Record, the Japanese CD for the Gattaca soundtrack), and Classical (The Planets Analogue Productions SACD, conducted by Zubin Mehta, a recordings from 1972, I played the CD layer of this SACD).
I put a piece of cloth on the PM 6007 front pannel so I couldn't see what DAC I listening to. A friend of mine did the source changing between the two DAC's. My friend took note of what DAC I was listening to every time he changed inputs on the PM 6007, and I took note of what DAC I prefered every time he changed inputs.
I always prefered the D400 PRO, I found It a bit more revealing, with better thight and punchy bass (I forgot to say that I also have a B&W ASW 608 subwoofer, again, nothing fancy), and a slightly more defined and wider stereo image.
Just my 0.02 $
 
revealing enough to tell one DAC from the other
Just my 0.02 $
Sorry, this is not just 2c, it's a load of pretentious rubbish. You've also made it clear now you have never level matched in any comparison, sighted or otherwise. You may not realise, but just a slight difference in volume will make the louder sound "better". If you're not level matching, any comparisons are useless.


JSmith
 
But the fact IS that the DO300 EX and the D400 PRO sound different for me.
Yes, that is highly likely.
I prefered that D400 PRO a Matter of taste, or maybe of sinergy with the rest of the components of our systems.
That's what 99% of audio users thinks and you clearly had a preference. This means you bought the right one.
Let me ask a question. If there are differences en the D400 PRO sounded noticeably better.... how high is the chance that there are many other brands/models that sound even better and you are missing out on ?
As you see, the gear on my HiFi system is nothing fancy, but revealing enough to tell one DAC from the other.
Did you try other DACs as well ?
And I had both connected to The PM 6007 at the same time. I got Amazon Spain to return the DO300 EX and got the D400 PRO. I got the D400 PRO before I returned the DO300 EX, so I had the chance to compare these two.
I compared them vía S/PDIF. I put an RCA Y connector so I could split the S/PDIF output or the Sony UBP X-8OO in two, I didn't know if this would work but It did.
I fed the same digital signal simultaneously to the D400 PRO and the DO300 EX, I did this test with different kinds of music, from Hard Rock (mainly Van Halen, I know their albums very very well, the 2015 192/24 Roth era digital downloads and the 2023 96/24 Sammy era digital downloads), to orchestral movie soundtracks (the Star Wars 2017, or was It 2018? 192/24 digital downloads, Star Trek The Motion Picture 3 CD set from 2012, The Stargate and Independence Day and Stargate 2 CD sets relealed by La La Land Record, the Japanese CD for the Gattaca soundtrack), and Classical (The Planets Analogue Productions SACD, conducted by Zubin Mehta, a recordings from 1972, I played the CD layer of this SACD).
I put a piece of cloth on the PM 6007 front pannel so I couldn't see what DAC I listening to. A friend of mine did the source changing between the two DAC's. My friend took note of what DAC I was listening to every time he changed inputs on the PM 6007, and I took note of what DAC I prefered every time he changed inputs.
I always prefered the D400 PRO, I found It a bit more revealing, with better thight and punchy bass (I forgot to say that I also have a B&W ASW 608 subwoofer, again, nothing fancy), and a slightly more defined and wider stereo image.
Just my 0.02 $

Must have taken a whole day to do that. Level matching is not even needed as both have the same output voltage and performance is beyond audible limits.

Just be happy you bought the 'better' DAC and can enjoy music a bit more.
Enjoy the music ... that's what audio is all about.
 
how high is the chance that there are many other brands/models that sound even better and you are missing out on ?
What if there is a better power cable that makes it sound better? What if there is a better interlink cable? What if one of those magic crystals that you can put on the DAC makes it sound even better? This is just a sliding scale into audiophile Alice in Wonderland with Paul McGowan as the queen of hearts ;)
 
But the fact IS that the DO300 EX and the D400 PRO sound different for your and for me.
I prefered that D400 PRO and you the DO300 EX, a Matter of taste, or maybe of sinergy with the rest of the components of our systems.
I have my D400 PRO coupled with a Marantz PM 6007 integrated amp (the cheapest one on the Marantz range when I got it in 2022, yet It sounds fine to me), a pair of KEF Q550, again, the cheapest floor standing speakers on the KEF range when I got them on Spring 2024. Source is a Sony UBP X-8OO M2 with its HDMI Port 2 connected to the Chinese HDMI audio extractor that unprotects both DSD and High Rez PCM from BD-AUDIO and DVD-AUDIO, and its I²S output connected vía HDMI to the I²S input from the D400 PRO.
As you see, the gear on my HiFi system is nothing fancy, but revealing enough to tell one DAC from the other.
And I had both connected to The PM 6007 at the same time. I got Amazon Spain to return the DO300 EX and got the D400 PRO. I got the D400 PRO before I returned the DO300 EX, so I had the chance to compare these two.
I compared them vía S/PDIF. I put an RCA Y connector so I could split the S/PDIF output or the Sony UBP X-8OO in two, I didn't know if this would work but It did.
I fed the same digital signal simultaneously to the D400 PRO and the DO300 EX, I did this test with different kinds of music, from Hard Rock (mainly Van Halen, I know their albums very very well, the 2015 192/24 Roth era digital downloads and the 2023 96/24 Sammy era digital downloads), to orchestral movie soundtracks (the Star Wars 2017, or was It 2018? 192/24 digital downloads, Star Trek The Motion Picture 3 CD set from 2012, The Stargate and Independence Day and Stargate 2 CD sets relealed by La La Land Record, the Japanese CD for the Gattaca soundtrack), and Classical (The Planets Analogue Productions SACD, conducted by Zubin Mehta, a recordings from 1972, I played the CD layer of this SACD).
I put a piece of cloth on the PM 6007 front pannel so I couldn't see what DAC I listening to. A friend of mine did the source changing between the two DAC's. My friend took note of what DAC I was listening to every time he changed inputs on the PM 6007, and I took note of what DAC I prefered every time he changed inputs.
I always prefered the D400 PRO, I found It a bit more revealing, with better thight and punchy bass (I forgot to say that I also have a B&W ASW 608 subwoofer, again, nothing fancy), and a slightly more defined and wider stereo image.
Just my 0.02 $
You neither read my post nor understood the obvious sarcasm.
 
What if there is a better power cable that makes it sound better? What if there is a better interlink cable? What if one of those magic crystals that you can put on the DAC makes it sound even better? This is just a sliding scale into audiophile Alice in Wonderland with Paul McGowan as the queen of hearts ;)
Yep... the eternal 'there is always something that sounds better' path.
However, it is his choice, his money, his opinion (which is considered a fact), his enjoyment.

He does not spend my money, does not hurt me, ASR readers can read the responses and choose which posts they agree with and form their own opinion.
 
What if there is a better power cable that makes it sound better? What if there is a better interlink cable? What if one of those magic crystals that you can put on the DAC makes it sound even better?
Me thinks those types will never be satisfied with anything in their lives and the quest for the best power cable ever may be indicative of a broader issue... maybe they can't get no satisfaction. I often demand satisfaction and regularly engage in glove slaps. ;)


JSmith
 
Every post of this kind on ASR usually ends up as a missed opportunity, both for the poster and the community.

It is usually a missed opportunity for the poster, because he sticks to his subjective assessment without taking the effort to search for the root cause(s) of the difference(s) he perceives, while the very process of searching and understanding one's findings is self-educating. Countless past experiences have taught us that the first thing to check is if the perceived difference is actually attributable to some properties of the device under scrutiny and not some other cause(s) independent of said device. After having ruled out a faulty set-up (bad connection, inadequate configuration, and so on) or any modification of the frequency response, be it intentional (tone control, loudness control, and so on) or not (inadequate input/output impedance) or modification of the dynamic of the signal (compressor), one has to verify if he has perceived different sound by comparing two devices or if he has actually compared more than one thing. The usual culprit is the comparison of two things at the same time : two different devices and two different playback levels. In is not possible to state firmly that two devices sound different without having check that only two devices had been compared.

Checking that one's has not been fooled by listening at two slightly different playback levels takes time, effort and money. Relevant test signals has to be procured, safe use of said signals has to be learnt, adequate metering device has to be at hand and indispensable hardware to proceed the comparison after ensuring that any difference in level has been rectified has to be purchased or built.

Rarely done are those efforts. However, this is the only way to ensure that two devices and nothing else actually produce sound that is perceived differently by a listener.

Once it's clear that there's a perceptible difference in sound, it's time to check whether the listener's perception is distorted by psychological biases. This is where a blind comparison—that is, hiding the device being listened to at a given moment—is essential.

If the perceived difference remains firmly after all that process, this is the point where the community really begins to miss an opportunity.

Indeed, there are entirely objective working hypotheses that could explain why two devices with the same function and apparently the same performance in the audio band still produce a different sound in the ears of one or more listeners.

But since these listeners generally don't make the necessary effort to confirm the existence of these differences, particularly because they are dissuaded from doing so by the denigration, derisive messages, or dogmatic responses addressed to them by many forum members, the community almost never has the opportunity to educate itself by objectively testing hardware characteristics, which consequently remain largely ignored on this forum.
I agree with what is expressed in this post. Whenever anyone asks for opinions on a dac because they like the sound, invariably denizens of this forum aggressively attack him, demanding WHY he wants to buy that particular dac, and then the chanting starts about how all dacs sound the same. You probably don't realize it, but this is most evident when someone says they like the sound of an akm dac over another brand.

But dacs have to sound different, at least on the infinitesimal level, because they are human constructs, made by different groups of people, attempting to accurately replicate the original sound of performances, which is then transferable across all genres of music. And bringing their own biases to the process. And really, how can they truly replicate the original sound of all performances, when to hear them in their lab where they are making the dac, most of the time they likely have to hear it reproduced through a dac anyway.

Listening to music is an emotional experience, and a persons emotional response is affected by pretty much unquantifiable factors, including the functioning of their hearing, the listening setting, and their emotional state at the time they are thinking an ESS or an AKM dac sounds better. And what is better?

And the talk about how blind tests PROVE that people can't hear the difference between dacs. Your blood pressure readings are different in the doctors office than they are at home after listening to calming music for a while. So why should people hear BETTER when they are in a blind test environment than somewhere else?

And then you usually start talking about how the sound isn't the dac but how it's implemented in the particular piece of equipment. But the dac is an integral part of the implementation that makes it all work on an emotional level. Another dac in the same equipment might sound different and draw a different emotional response from the listener. Even the name and the hype of a dac draws a different emotional response. And the appearance, and the brand, of the equipment.

You guys need to lighten up, and accept that everybody's opinion about sound and equipment is subjective. That's why you are here anyway.
 
Listening to music is an emotional experience
All fine and good. But this is never the argument. It’s always, this DAC has this and that; DAC z has component G, DAC y has a better power supply, and so on…
 
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I agree with what is expressed in this post. Whenever anyone asks for opinions on a dac because they like the sound, invariably denizens of this forum aggressively attack him, demanding WHY he wants to buy that particular dac, and then the chanting starts about how all dacs sound the same. You probably don't realize it, but this is most evident when someone says they like the sound of an akm dac over another brand.

But dacs have to sound different, at least on the infinitesimal level, because they are human constructs, made by different groups of people, attempting to accurately replicate the original sound of performances, which is then transferable across all genres of music. And bringing their own biases to the process. And really, how can they truly replicate the original sound of all performances, when to hear them in their lab where they are making the dac, most of the time they likely have to hear it reproduced through a dac anyway.

Listening to music is an emotional experience, and a persons emotional response is affected by pretty much unquantifiable factors, including the functioning of their hearing, the listening setting, and their emotional state at the time they are thinking an ESS or an AKM dac sounds better. And what is better?

And the talk about how blind tests PROVE that people can't hear the difference between dacs. Your blood pressure readings are different in the doctors office than they are at home after listening to calming music for a while. So why should people hear BETTER when they are in a blind test environment than somewhere else?

And then you usually start talking about how the sound isn't the dac but how it's implemented in the particular piece of equipment. But the dac is an integral part of the implementation that makes it all work on an emotional level. Another dac in the same equipment might sound different and draw a different emotional response from the listener. Even the name and the hype of a dac draws a different emotional response. And the appearance, and the brand, of the equipment.

You guys need to lighten up, and accept that everybody's opinion about sound and equipment is subjective. That's why you are here anyway.
You're misunderstanding something altogether, and that's precisely a problem, or several problems, for many users.

We're mostly talking about DACs with TOP measured values, i.e., devices that rank very high on the ASR SINAD list.
Most of these devices are developed using AP analyzers, so so-called "sounding" is very unlikely.
DACs with a SINAD above 100 (even equal to or better than 115) are available for well under €100, so the transparency is in a range that is no longer audible/distinguishable to humans, even on the best systems.
That's the first point.

The second point is even simpler.
We're talking about a digitized audio signal that is converted back to analog.
These are absolute values with no room for interpretation!
There are only two possibilities for the result: right or wrong.
Anyone who believes otherwise has neither understood the physics nor the mathematics behind it.
And both the computing power and the correct evaluation in DAC chips have been a solved problem since the late 1980s.

The third point can indeed make a minimal difference, but it is very small, and if audible at all, then at best a marginal difference. This concerns the DAC's analog output circuitry, i.e., I/V converters, filter stages, etc.
But these are also optimized on the AP analyzers to achieve the best measured values.
An audible difference is also reflected in the measured values at this point, i.e., a deviation from the optimum and therefore also an error.

So, if you can clearly and repeatably distinguish between two DACs in a blinded test, there are actually only two possibilities. One of the DACs has significantly worse measured values (i.e., in the audible range), or it is defective. The "actually" refers to the third possibility: both DACs are defective.

There are actually only three types of DACs on the market (of course, these aren't so clearly defined):
- Flawless and accurate conversion with good measured values (low noise)
- Flawless and accurate conversion with poor measured values (high noise)
- The conversion result no longer even remotely matches the output signal. These DACs can only be described as defective, as they fail to fulfill their actual basic function.

The "sounding" of a device always means an intervention and a change in the original music signal. This intervention always occurs, regardless of the musical genre or music signal.
Everyone has to decide for themselves whether such a device is useful. Because this change cannot be reversed in the subsequent chain.
In my opinion and my experience, targeted intervention with EQ/PEQ is much more useful.

Once people understand these simple fundamentals, and perhaps even hear them in a blind test, it will save them a lot of money and a huge amount of time wasted on nonsense.
Otherwise, take a look at the construction of DACs. On the digital side, the data must not be altered, otherwise the device will be defective.
After the DAC chips, there are only a few components through which the analog audio signal passes. If the signal is audibly altered on this short path, then the developer has really screwed up and failed.
Think about it.

What I'm writing here isn't just theory, but 35 years of experience, 25 of which are based on real blind and absolutely level-controlled blind tests with over 200 DACs in price ranges between €5 and €25,000.
 
Are there differences/benefits/tradeoffs at this point?
To me it looks like the AKM chipset is about 5 times the price of the ESS.
So i guess for AKM products there are motivation to use quality components in rest of the design.
Think we will see some 9039 solutions with very low cost design around the chip.
That is OK as long as the measurements do not go really bad because of resistors
or caps at 0.001$
Then it is convenient with ASR. If the design are within 6 dB of the Sota for that chip, you are probably ok regarding sound.
Then we have the forum. Here artifacts with the product will often be revield. So the buyer can chose if those artifacts is OK
(6dB was just a number to deside if tha analog components probably have a large internal variation or are in a stressfull state)
 
You're misunderstanding something altogether, and that's precisely a problem, or several problems, for many users.

We're mostly talking about DACs with TOP measured values, i.e., devices that rank very high on the ASR SINAD list.
Most of these devices are developed using AP analyzers, so so-called "sounding" is very unlikely.
DACs with a SINAD above 100 (even equal to or better than 115) are available for well under €100, so the transparency is in a range that is no longer audible/distinguishable to humans, even on the best systems.
That's the first point.

The second point is even simpler.
We're talking about a digitized audio signal that is converted back to analog.
These are absolute values with no room for interpretation!
There are only two possibilities for the result: right or wrong.
Anyone who believes otherwise has neither understood the physics nor the mathematics behind it.
And both the computing power and the correct evaluation in DAC chips have been a solved problem since the late 1980s.

The third point can indeed make a minimal difference, but it is very small, and if audible at all, then at best a marginal difference. This concerns the DAC's analog output circuitry, i.e., I/V converters, filter stages, etc.
But these are also optimized on the AP analyzers to achieve the best measured values.
An audible difference is also reflected in the measured values at this point, i.e., a deviation from the optimum and therefore also an error.

So, if you can clearly and repeatably distinguish between two DACs in a blinded test, there are actually only two possibilities. One of the DACs has significantly worse measured values (i.e., in the audible range), or it is defective. The "actually" refers to the third possibility: both DACs are defective.

There are actually only three types of DACs on the market (of course, these aren't so clearly defined):
- Flawless and accurate conversion with good measured values (low noise)
- Flawless and accurate conversion with poor measured values (high noise)
- The conversion result no longer even remotely matches the output signal. These DACs can only be described as defective, as they fail to fulfill their actual basic function.

The "sounding" of a device always means an intervention and a change in the original music signal. This intervention always occurs, regardless of the musical genre or music signal.
Everyone has to decide for themselves whether such a device is useful. Because this change cannot be reversed in the subsequent chain.
In my opinion and my experience, targeted intervention with EQ/PEQ is much more useful.

Once people understand these simple fundamentals, and perhaps even hear them in a blind test, it will save them a lot of money and a huge amount of time wasted on nonsense.
Otherwise, take a look at the construction of DACs. On the digital side, the data must not be altered, otherwise the device will be defective.
After the DAC chips, there are only a few components through which the analog audio signal passes. If the signal is audibly altered on this short path, then the developer has really screwed up and failed.
Think about it.

What I'm writing here isn't just theory, but 35 years of experience, 25 of which are based on real blind and absolutely level-controlled blind tests with over 200 DACs in price ranges between €5 and €25,000.
Generally I agree with everything you said. I'm a firm believer in science and measurements (except when science is abused in the name of a political agenda, but that's a different story). I'm sure that everything that's audible must be measurable one way or the other.

But somehow I don't feel that the manner in which DACs are commonly tested is broad enough to tell us the whole story.
What these measurements tell us is how well (or badly) a DAC would behave if it were presented with a perfect 1 kHz sine wave at 0 dBFS. But firstly, we're not listening to 1 kHz sine waves, and secondly, properly mastered music will rarely (if ever) reach 0 dBFS.

This point has been raised countless times before, and each time the counterargument was that if a DAC distorts at 1 kHz, then it will distort at other frequencies as well. Sure, this does look like a reasonable assumption, but the problem is, it doesn't work the other way around. That is, if a DAC performs marvellously at 1 kHz at 0 dBFS, that doesn't by any means prove that it will behave exactly as well when presented with a random mix of other frequencies at a random mix of amplitudes.

I find it extremely odd that after fourty years of digital music, after fourty years of progress, when the technology is now more than mature and the digital to analog conversion, like you say, has long been a solved problem, the market is suddenly taken by storm by some Chinese no-names that score fantastically high, unbelievably high, in all the tests, much higher than most of the products from much older and more experienced names in the industry. And not only that, but they also do it much more cheaply. They purport to offer incredibly great SINAD at a quarter of the price - and with a lot of extra features to boot.
Call me cynical, but this looks extremely fishy to me. I don't believe in fairies.
I suspect they are somehow gaming the system, though I can't explain how. There must be a catch somewhere.

So, is a DAC that scores extremely well in Amir's tests really perfectly transparent? Most will say it is, but I have serious doubts about that.
Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe I'm missing something really obvious (it wouldn't be the first time). But I can't figure out what. And until I do, I will continue to look at these new, allegedly 'transparent' miracles with a lot of skepticism.
 
I find it extremely odd that after fourty years of digital music, after fourty years of progress, when the technology is now more than mature and the digital to analog conversion, like you say, has long been a solved problem
It is a solved problem just like amplifiers are.

In practice, however, some manufacturers are able to 'f up designs in some specific aspect(s) in a small or significant amount.
With the measurements that are done one can weed out the most obvious ones.
When certain measurements are NOT done one could miss some issues.

The thing is you can't test everything all the time as it is time consuming and reporting is too.
One does basic tests, looks for issues and if there are none leave it at that. They should be telling enough.
When a test brings up cause for concern then one can measure more in depth.

The ONLY thing that is measured is signal fidelity (quality) and limits of the device.
The one interpreting ALL the measurements done (so not just 1 or 2 parameters) is the one that can get an idea of performance in the tested conditions.
SINAD, for instance is just one parameter at a specific level and frequency and is only that. Don't think it represents 'audio quality'.

In the analysis too mistakes can be made as we are human.

This point has been raised countless times before, and each time the counterargument was that if a DAC distorts at 1 kHz, then it will distort at other frequencies as well. Sure, this does look like a reasonable assumption, but the problem is, it doesn't work the other way around. That is, if a DAC performs marvellously at 1 kHz at 0 dBFS, that doesn't by any means prove that it will behave exactly as well when presented with a random mix of other frequencies at a random mix of amplitudes.
That's why multi-tone measurements are done and nulling exists (which has obvious limits).
Anyone gauging performance of a DAC based on 1kHz performance does not understand that they also need to look at ALL other measurements.
 
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Where did you find those prices? Sound highly unlikely.
The AKM was about 50$ at digikey. The 9039 is about 10$ I think.
So ESS make extremly good chip really cheep.
Maybe it is just expensive in greece
And see the 9038 is 15 to 20$ so 10 was maybe a little low
I can confirm that this measure really well with simple power. And uses really good inexpensive components. So this is well within. But there may be others that dont. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...der_detail.order_detail_item.3.557bf19cB9Qxri
 
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