Do all amplifiers sound the same? Level matched listening test

[TurtlePaul]

Every manufacturer, even the most expensive or famous, has "baduns" - a model with an inherent defect not spotted during prototyping. So every year thousands of Class AB amplifiers are junked because they failed and were not "economical to repair".

Do more Class D amplifiers fail? Or do Class D amplifiers fail sooner? I don't think anyone knows (other than manufacturers, and they won't share).

Many of the old class AB brands are the Rolex of amps: McIntosh, Bryston, Conrad Johnson, Classe, Accuphase, Luxman. Recapping and even replacing the transistors on these $5k amps can make sense.

As you point out, there is a point where electronics are uneconomical to repair. Many of these Class D brands are the Casio of amps: Topping, 3e, Hypex mp series, Fosi. Since new cost is 90% lower at <$500, or even <$300, these will rarely be economic to repair. Let alone they have integrated circuit based architectures and surface mount components.

I find it a little silly that people are lamenting that new amps can’t be serviced instead of celebrating that a new 150 wpc 100+ SINAD amp costs less than the price to service of its 1990s class AB sonic equivalent.

 

[mtcn77]

One thing of note is we now have an FTC rating that includes a sustained power test. It might be important to some.

 

[Roland68]

As you point out, there is a point where electronics are uneconomical to repair. Many of these Class D brands are the Casio of amps: Topping, 3e, Hypex mp series, Fosi. Since new cost is 90% lower at <$500, or even <$300, these will rarely be economic to repair. Let alone they have integrated circuit based architectures and surface mount components.

I find it a little silly that people are lamenting that new amps can’t be serviced instead of celebrating that a new 150 wpc 100+ SINAD amp costs less than the price to service of its 1990s class AB sonic equivalent.

And this perfectly reflects the sick attitude in this world and the massive waste of resources (materials, not money). Added to this is the massive environmental pollution caused by disposal in landfills in developing countries. Years of burning toxic electronic components and plastics there are permanently contaminating the air and groundwater.

These emissions contaminate cultivated food, including organic produce, and all animal products via air and rain, not to mention groundwater, worldwide without exception.
Here, too, science and measurements clearly demonstrate the problem.
Because even in 2026, functioning and sustainable recycling will not exist.

Meanwhile, a large proportion of devices, not just in the audio sector, fail due to cheap and undersized SMD components. Savings per device range from a few cents to a maximum of €/$1-2 in production.

These very components make repairs extremely difficult and sometimes impossible.
Furthermore, a large proportion of electronic failures, including those in audio devices, are now attributable to these very cheap SMD components. These failures often damage other components as well.
This is completely unnecessary!

The second issue is the lack of service documentation/manuals, especially from manufacturers who don't offer repairs during or after the warranty period.

The statement quoted above is also problematic because many Class D devices could be repaired easily and inexpensively if the aforementioned points were addressed.
But if everyone continues to accept the situation without complaint or consequences, it will only get worse.

In the EU (and perhaps elsewhere), there is now a business that thrives on buying up defective DSL routers from certain companies. These routers fail in large numbers within the first five years, even during the warranty period, due to the aforementioned SMD problem. The business repairs the routers, eliminates known weaknesses, and resells them as repaired/refurbished devices with a warranty.

Statistics now show that the losses incurred by these DSL router manufacturers are greater than the savings in production.
Darüber hinaus hat die hohe Anzahl defekter Geräte dem Ruf des ehemaligen Premiumherstellers erheblich geschadet.
Does this happen to remind anyone of a well-known Chinese audio manufacturer with very accurate measuring devices?

 

[TurtlePaul]

And this perfectly reflects the sick attitude in this world and the massive waste of resources (materials, not money). Added to this is the massive environmental pollution caused by disposal in landfills in developing countries. Years of burning toxic electronic components and plastics there are permanently contaminating the air and groundwater.

How long do you think that a 2 lbs. amp that idles at 8 watts needs to last to be better for the environment than a 70 lbs. amp that uses 50 watts at idle?

 

[Chr1]

Not sure this is a fair comparison as I would expect an amp that uses 50W at idle to put out much more power than one that idles at 8W.
Idle power consumption is usually primarily down to the power supply. Regardless of the class of amplifier.
Plus, what does the weight have to do with anything?

 

[TurtlePaul]

Not sure this is a fair comparison as I would expect an amp that uses 50W at idle to put out much more power than one that idles at 8W.
Idle power consumption is usually primarily down to the power supply. Regardless of the class of amplifier.
Plus, what does the weight have to do with anything?

Output power: A 3e Audio A7 idles at 9 watts and outputs about 150-160 watts with two channels driven. a NAD 316BEE idles at 45 watts and outputs 43 watts with two channels driven.

The weight comparison: if the complaint is about how much material ends up in landfills, the old class AB amps are not very efficient in terms of material use. And when you 'service' them, a bunch of electrolytic caps and output transistors end up in the landfill anyways.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Plus, what does the weight have to do with anything?

Assuming weight is being used as a proxy for mass, it affects the lifetime costs (extraction through disposal) massively.

As far as I know, the three Rs of environmental responsibility still apply. In order of importance:

Reduce
Reuse
Recycle

You are almost always better off making something smaller and less repairable, than larger and more repairable, but not enough data is available to test the use case for amps, as far as I can tell.

Ideally you maximize all three.

 

[Chr1]

Yes, but the NAD is an integrated with a preamp section.
I have an Alesis RA-100 class A/B which puts out pretty much the same power as my Topping Mini 300. It idles at 11W, which is very similar to the Topping. Both are power amps, with no preamp section.

Class D is only really more efficient at higher output levels. At idle, power losses are down to the power supply.

 

[Oddball]

Turn off the amps - save the environment. I have been doing it for 15 years and amps still going strong.

 

[Chr1]

Indeed.
Anyhoo, whatever the class, I reckon reliability/longevity should be considered an important design factor.
Clearly with some amps it is not.

 

[mhardy6647]

Yeah -- not a fan of always on.
Idle, schmidle -- in my day off was off. A big ol' switch. ker-thunk.

 

[mhardy6647]

or, of course, there's always the nuclear option:

 

[Chr1]

I'm mostly using energy monitoring smart switches these days. Don't even have to get off the couch whilst saving the planet. Yowza.

(Then there's the added fun and educational ability to observe how your amplifiers energy useage is usually directly proportional to your bourbon consumption.)

 

[Hindsider85]

What does Amir say about AMP sound? I would be surprised, if he says that they do sound different. AS LONG as they dont purposefully (Tubes) or technically (audible distortion) alter the sound characteristics, they shouldnt color the sound at all. Or am I wrong?

 

[Oddball]

Most of them are good. So you are not wrong. Plenty other things to worry about than amps. That was solved 30 years ago.

 

[Hindsider85]

Most of them are good. So you are not wrong. Plenty other things to worry about than amps. That was solved 30 years ago.

I've never heard more or less sound from properly build AMPs. The only difference I really heard was with the Dartzteel clones from Ali. And, to be clear, I never heard "more" with them, but they did do something "funky" with the sound. Maybe due to their speciality that they have no feedback-something. I forgot what it was, but I could swear they made the sound come out different from the speakers. More correctly? Certainly not. They did do something with the sound though and im serious and it was rather pleasant.
Edit: What I do know is that OPAs make no difference. I tried the Sparkos SS3602 and the Burson V6 Vivid. I still use them, but I never heard something different comapred to the NE5532P or the OPA1612/56. It was a waste of money, but I have them for years now and I use them just because I bought them. But I strongly advice against OPA rolling. It doesnt make one iota of a difference. Any time I thought they did, it was a momentary thing. I couldnt replicate to hear that difference in subsequent listening sessions. So there thats...

 

[Hindsider85]

What a sheltered life you've led. Far from all amps sounding the same, there's a massive difference despite what readings might suggest.

First, you need good quality speakers to judge the ability of an amp to get them to sing in such a way as to give you goosebumps. Don't bother looking for an exciting amp if you have drearily dull speakers.

With good speakers, borrow or buy a bunch of amps of Class A, AB, D, SET, OTL, or whatever and spend a few days listening to one and then another. You'll soon realise that not all amps sound the same, despite similar measurements.

An extreme point to illustrate this. I bought a Benchmark AHB2 amp on a rave recommendation and its exceptional measurements to replace SETs I'd been previously using. Instead of listening to music, I found myself listening to Muzak such that I wanted to turn down the volume - kiss of death surely. I bought or borrowed numerous ss amps and listened to each for between a week and a year to establish their worthiness in my system. Some were dire while others excited the soul and neither group was influenced by price.

I strongly disagree. Ive heard many AMPs and they never revealed something the others didnt and vice versa. The ONLY exception I do acknowledge are the Dartzeel AMPs and their clones. And that is because they use a completely different method, with their special internal design. But im sure that they do NOT replicate the sound 1:1 as intended. But whatever it is they do, the sound has a certain "magic" to it that I cant explain. But I wish I could get a real Dartzeel AMP for a week or two, to see if they are actually superior to their ALI clones. Somehow I doubt that but I would love to give it a try. If someone can borrow me 65k Euros. No worries, I would send them back before the return window ends. LOL!

 

[Sal1950]

AS LONG as they dont purposefully (Tubes) or technically (audible distortion) alter the sound characteristics, they shouldnt color the sound at all. Or am I wrong?

There are other things to consider, This was Peter Aczels slant on it to which I fully agreed.

Vastly exaggerated in importance by the audiophile press and high-end audio dealers. In controlled double-blind listening tests, no one has ever (yes, ever!) heard a difference between two amplifiers with high input impedance, low output impedance, flat response, low distortion, and low noise, when operated at precisely matched levels (±0.1 dB) and not clipped. Of course, the larger your room and the less efficient your speakers, the more watts you need to avoid clipping.

Paste This in Your Hat!

A man's ambition must be mighty small
To write his name on a toilet wall.
A tweak's ambition is smaller yet
To post a dumb message on the Internet.

 

[Sal1950]

The ONLY exception I do acknowledge are the Dartzeel AMPs and their clones. And that is because they use a completely different method, with their special internal design. But im sure that they do NOT replicate the sound 1:1 as intended. But whatever it is they do, the sound has a certain "magic" to it that I cant explain. But I wish I could get a real Dartzeel AMP for a week or two, to see if they are actually superior to their ALI clones.

I know nothing about the clones but the MO for Dartzeel is to have no global negative feedback and supposedly limited amounts of local negative feedback. This purposeful design decision most likely is responsible for any "sound" heard from them.
OOOOh don't they sound like, pick one,
Analog
Warm
Tubes
Smooth
Vinyl
Mikey Loves Dartzeel, and they're GOLD plated.

To quote John Atkinson
"Yes, the distortion is relatively high in level, which will be due to the designer's decision not to use any global negative feedback. But I keep coming back to the independence of the amplifier's transfer function from the input signal. I have long felt that this behavior is related to good sound quality. I will be interested to read what JVS thought of the darTZeel's sound.—John Atkinson"

 

[RexrothPigeon]

And this perfectly reflects the sick attitude in this world and the massive waste of resources (materials, not money). Added to this is the massive environmental pollution caused by disposal in landfills in developing countries. Years of burning toxic electronic components and plastics there are permanently contaminating the air and groundwater.

These emissions contaminate cultivated food, including organic produce, and all animal products via air and rain, not to mention groundwater, worldwide without exception.
Here, too, science and measurements clearly demonstrate the problem.
Because even in 2026, functioning and sustainable recycling will not exist.

Meanwhile, a large proportion of devices, not just in the audio sector, fail due to cheap and undersized SMD components. Savings per device range from a few cents to a maximum of €/$1-2 in production.

These very components make repairs extremely difficult and sometimes impossible.
Furthermore, a large proportion of electronic failures, including those in audio devices, are now attributable to these very cheap SMD components. These failures often damage other components as well.
This is completely unnecessary!

The second issue is the lack of service documentation/manuals, especially from manufacturers who don't offer repairs during or after the warranty period.

The statement quoted above is also problematic because many Class D devices could be repaired easily and inexpensively if the aforementioned points were addressed.
But if everyone continues to accept the situation without complaint or consequences, it will only get worse.

In the EU (and perhaps elsewhere), there is now a business that thrives on buying up defective DSL routers from certain companies. These routers fail in large numbers within the first five years, even during the warranty period, due to the aforementioned SMD problem. The business repairs the routers, eliminates known weaknesses, and resells them as repaired/refurbished devices with a warranty.

Statistics now show that the losses incurred by these DSL router manufacturers are greater than the savings in production.
Darüber hinaus hat die hohe Anzahl defekter Geräte dem Ruf des ehemaligen Premiumherstellers erheblich geschadet.
Does this happen to remind anyone of a well-known Chinese audio manufacturer with very accurate measuring devices?

nobody could ever buy an amplifier again and it would not even be a single piss in the ocean of anthropocene climate destruction, sorry to be a downer but individual consumer choices don't move the needle and righteous indignation about them is misguided