DJ mixer questions for home setup

[The3dk]

Hi there,

I hope I am choosing the right forum...

Before coming to some questions, please find some more Information about my "challenge" hereafter:


Setup:

I am using 2 Technics 1210 MKII record players

with Ortofon Concorde MKII Elite MM-Systems

connected through 2 Musical Fidelity V90-LPS phono-preamps

to an "older" Pioneer DJM-600 DJ-Mixer for analog playing (using line chinch input).

I also use a Pioneer DDJ SX3 DJ controller (incl. Serato) for digital playing.

Both is connected to a Yamaha R-N800A amplifier using chinch cable connection.

Attached to the amplifier is a pair of KEF R3 (not meta) and a KEF Kube 10 MIE active Subwoofer.



Initial Situation:

All in all I am pretty satisfied with the Setup, BUT...:



When I tried out to connect the record players to the DDJ SX3 DJ Controller (directly in phono in, or in line in using Musical Fidelity V90-LPS phono-preamps), the sound was pretty weak ☹

That's why I dug up my Pioneer DJM-600 DJ-Mixer and the result showed that using this the sound was much more better!!!

My initial idea was to use only one mixing desk (hybrid) for both analog and digital, but my experience showed that this did not work out with the DDJ SX3 DJ Controller (soundwise) :-(
This seems to be the case because the mixer is dedicated to play digital and the used inputs for phono and line seem to be the problem, or all is converted digitally???



This leads to the following questions:

- I have the feeling that the DJ Mixers in the middle of the setup are the weakest part of the chain.

- The Pioneer DJM-600 DJ-Mixer is from early 2005, nowadays a lot of more good mixers should be out.

- What mixer should I get hold of to maximize sound experience?

- Is there a way to have only ONE hybrid mixer for analog AND digital (Serato) playing which provides high quality audio output also for analog sources?

For example:

AlphaTheta Euphonia (Serato compatible, I never mixed rotary, master output is only XLR - do I loose sound quality when converting XLR to chinch to go into the amplifier?)

Pionner DJM-A9 ?

Pioneer DJM-V10 ?



- Are the any other mixer suggestions to guarantee a maximum sound quality when splitting to 2 mixers (one for vinyl one for digital / Serato)?



Any hints are more than welcome!



Thank you so much!



Best

M.

 

[Ropeburn]

Hm. It would be prudent to determine what exactly "weak" is. Bad sound? Unlikely. Too low volume? More likely. That's a rather common problem with hybrid DJ systems. Analog inputs have to accommodate a rather wide range of input volumes, and are set to a rather conservative gain compared to the other digital sources, so the inputs don't overdrive easily. If the input gain trim then isn't enough, you end up with a lower volume than from digital sources. Very annoying.

You can test whether it's that or actually bad sound. Record the same record twice: one through the DDJ, once through the DJM, then normalise both to the exact same volume, and compare.

 

[The3dk]

Hm. It would be prudent to determine what exactly "weak" is. Bad sound? Unlikely. Too low volume? More likely. That's a rather common problem with hybrid DJ systems. Analog inputs have to accommodate a rather wide range of input volumes, and are set to a rather conservative gain compared to the other digital sources, so the inputs don't overdrive easily. If the input gain trim then isn't enough, you end up with a lower volume than from digital sources. Very annoying.

You can test whether it's that or actually bad sound. Record the same record twice: one through the DDJ, once through the DJM, then normalise both to the exact same volume, and compare.

Thanks for the hint! I will give it a try!!!

 

[DVDdoug]

master output is only XLR - do I loose sound quality when converting XLR to chinch to go into the amplifier?)

Possibly...

As a rule you shouldn't go from balanced to unbalanced unless the manufacturer (of the balanced device) has instructions for how to do it. Or you can get a passive (transformer) or active converter. Make sure the converter is designed for line-level signals.

It's OK to go the other way around (unbalanced-to-balanced) and you still get most of the noise isolation benefits of a balanced input.


Note that Line level isn't calibrated except in some pro environments and there is often a volume control which makes it more uncertain, and there are different pro & consumer levels. A "pro" balanced input may be expecting a hotter signal and my not have enough gain for a consumer line-level signal.

 

[Ropeburn]

Note that Line level isn't calibrated except in some pro environments and there is often a volume control which makes it more uncertain, and there are different pro & consumer levels. A "pro" balanced input may be expecting a hotter signal and my not have enough gain for a consumer line-level signal.

That is likely the problem here. Especially when we have vinyl source. Cartridges alone vary wildly in output, easily between 2mV and 9mV, an any input must accommodate it all. To be on the safe side, input gain must be low.

A typical weakness of hybrid DJ controllers/mixers is simply not have enough gain trim to compensate for the extremes. An oldschool analog mixer like OP's DJM600 won't have that problem, those typically have a nice, big gain trim range that's uncritical to use due to big analog headroom.

 

[The3dk]

Possibly...

As a rule you shouldn't go from balanced to unbalanced unless the manufacturer (of the balanced device) has instructions for how to do it. Or you can get a passive (transformer) or active converter. Make sure the converter is designed for line-level signals.

It's OK to go the other way around (unbalanced-to-balanced) and you still get most of the noise isolation benefits of a balanced input.


Note that Line level isn't calibrated except in some pro environments and there is often a volume control which makes it more uncertain, and there are different pro & consumer levels. A "pro" balanced input may be expecting a hotter signal and my not have enough gain for a consumer line-level signal.

Thanks a lot for your feedback!

I have found a video where they state that it is also possible to use the rec-out as master-out of AlphaTheta Euphonia which is chinch.
This could maybe solve the converting problem (XLR to chinch / balanced to unbalanced)...

(german only) ->Min 4:58

When I have a closer look at the technical specs of the AlphaTheta Euphonia it says:
Standard output level/Load impedance/Output impedance
MASTER +6 dBu/10 kΩ/360 Ω -> XLR / balanced
REC OUT -8 dBu/10 kΩ/700 Ω -> Chinch / unbalanced
BOOTH +6 dBu/10 kΩ/360 Ω -> 3,6 Mono balanced

Rated output level/Load impedance
MASTER +25 dBu/10 kΩ
BOOTH +25 dBu/10 kΩ

Pioneer DJ—Page 51

Specifications General Power requirements.AC 110 V – 240 V, 50 Hz/60 Hz Power consumption . 43 W Power consumption (off) . 0.2 W Main unit weight . 9.5 kg/

docs.pioneerdj.com

This leads to the following questions on my side:

Will there be a difference in sound (quality) when using Master / Booth, or Rec-Out?
It seems to be quite a gap between -8 dBu and +6 dBu - what is the difference, how will this be recognized?
Rated output level/Load impedance can just be given for balanced outputs?

PS:
As an additional info: I have a pair of thoose in my cable collection.... Do you think they might be usefull too?

J&D 2 RCA Male to 2 XLR Female Cable,
Unbalanced Dual XLR to RCA HiFi Audio Cable
Stereo Audio Connection Cable Connector
PVC Shelled RCA Cable for Speaker Condenser Mic Mixer AMP

J&D 2 RCA Male to 2 XLR Female Cable, Unbalanced Dual XLR to RCA HiFi Audio Cable Stereo Audio Connection Cable Connector PVC Shelled RCA Cable for Speaker Condenser Mic Mixer AMP : Amazon.de: Electronics & Photo

J&D 2 RCA Male to 2 XLR Female Cable, Unbalanced Dual XLR to RCA HiFi Audio Cable Stereo Audio Connection Cable Connector PVC Shelled RCA Cable for Speaker Condenser Mic Mixer AMP : Amazon.de: Electronics & Photo

www.amazon.de

Thank you so much!

Best
M.

 

[The3dk]

Thanks a lot for your feedback!

I have found a video where they state that it is also possible to use the rec-out as master-out of AlphaTheta Euphonia which is chinch.
This could maybe solve the converting problem (XLR to chinch / balanced to unbalanced)...

(german only) ->Min 4:58

When I have a closer look at the technical specs of the AlphaTheta Euphonia it says:
Standard output level/Load impedance/Output impedance
MASTER +6 dBu/10 kΩ/360 Ω -> XLR / balanced
REC OUT -8 dBu/10 kΩ/700 Ω -> Chinch / unbalanced
BOOTH +6 dBu/10 kΩ/360 Ω -> 3,6 Mono balanced

Rated output level/Load impedance
MASTER +25 dBu/10 kΩ
BOOTH +25 dBu/10 kΩ

Pioneer DJ—Page 51

Specifications General Power requirements.AC 110 V – 240 V, 50 Hz/60 Hz Power consumption . 43 W Power consumption (off) . 0.2 W Main unit weight . 9.5 kg/

docs.pioneerdj.com

This leads to the following questions on my side:

Will there be a difference in sound (quality) when using Master / Booth, or Rec-Out?
It seems to be quite a gap between -8 dBu and +6 dBu - what is the difference, how will this be recognized?
Rated output level/Load impedance can just be given for balanced outputs?

PS:
As an additional info: I have a pair of thoose in my cable collection.... Do you think they might be usefull too?

J&D 2 RCA Male to 2 XLR Female Cable,
Unbalanced Dual XLR to RCA HiFi Audio Cable
Stereo Audio Connection Cable Connector
PVC Shelled RCA Cable for Speaker Condenser Mic Mixer AMP

J&D 2 RCA Male to 2 XLR Female Cable, Unbalanced Dual XLR to RCA HiFi Audio Cable Stereo Audio Connection Cable Connector PVC Shelled RCA Cable for Speaker Condenser Mic Mixer AMP : Amazon.de: Electronics & Photo

J&D 2 RCA Male to 2 XLR Female Cable, Unbalanced Dual XLR to RCA HiFi Audio Cable Stereo Audio Connection Cable Connector PVC Shelled RCA Cable for Speaker Condenser Mic Mixer AMP : Amazon.de: Electronics & Photo

www.amazon.de

Thank you so much!

Best
M.

I have received the following answers from a diffenrent community... Sounds comprehensible...

You get lower output volume/amplitude on Rec out (-8 vs +6) and loose balanced signal trasmission feature as it´s in master/booth - so without supression of inducted noise (mainly) on long cables. Otherwise same.

 

[nagster]

Some measurements of AlphaTheta euphonia. Excerpted from a previous AP sequence report.
Based on the measurements, if OP require high fidelity, you should rule out the euphonia.
If you don't require high fidelity, you may like the sound of the euphonia. You'll need to try it out to see if it's to your liking.

 

[Ropeburn]

Some measurements of AlphaTheta euphonia. Excerpted from a previous AP sequence report.
Based on the measurements, if OP require high fidelity, you should rule out the euphonia.
If you don't require high fidelity, you may like the sound of the euphonia. You'll need to try it out to see if it's to your liking.

Thanks for these. Now I know why they call it "Euphonia" That looks godawful.

 

[JohnnyAudio]

Just don't buy an Allen & Heath XONE 92. I have 2 of them with damage all over the circuit boards.
They sound good but not reliable at all.

 

[Reticuli]

In ideal situations with short runs and no RFI/EMI, unbalanced line outputs are always superior measuring to balanced outputs because it's impossible to generate perfectly out of phase signals and then do the differential amp on the other end. Balanced in this context is a utility connection to avoid induced noise, not something that's more audiophile by default. If you have a long run and/or issues with RFI/EMI nearby, then go balanced. Sometimes balanced can even help you avoid ground hums, too.

Those three mixers would all sound better than the DJM-600 unless you just love that mixer's sound because you're accustomed to it, as would many other DJ mixers you could get new or used other than digital Pioneers / Alpha Thetas you mentioned. I own a Euphonia, as well as many other mixers, and the Euphonia would do the trick for you. It has a Neve transformer in the signal path, so the distortion that analysis above shows is very intentional. The Euphonia is basically an A9 with the Trans Loop, a different effects section, master isolator instead of optional channel isolators, and really nice rotary volume pots instead of faders... in a different layout, obviously.

You have a ton of other 'controllers' and 'all-in-one consoles' to choose from, too, not to mention the fact your main problem is likely simply the wrong level into the current controller you have (too low or too high).

 

[The3dk]

Some measurements of AlphaTheta euphonia. Excerpted from a previous AP sequence report.
Based on the measurements, if OP require high fidelity, you should rule out the euphonia.
If you don't require high fidelity, you may like the sound of the euphonia. You'll need to try it out to see if it's to your liking.

Thank you so much!!!

 

[The3dk]

In ideal situations with short runs and no RFI/EMI, unbalanced line outputs are always superior measuring to balanced outputs because it's impossible to generate perfectly out of phase signals and then do the differential amp on the other end. Balanced in this context is a utility connection to avoid induced noise, not something that's more audiophile by default. If you have a long run and/or issues with RFI/EMI nearby, then go balanced. Sometimes balanced can even help you avoid ground hums, too.

Those three mixers would all sound better than the DJM-600 unless you just love that mixer's sound because you're accustomed to it, as would many other DJ mixers you could get new or used other than digital Pioneers / Alpha Thetas you mentioned. I own a Euphonia, as well as many other mixers, and the Euphonia would do the trick for you. It has a Neve transformer in the signal path, so the distortion that analysis above shows is very intentional. The Euphonia is basically an A9 with the Trans Loop, a different effects section, master isolator instead of optional channel isolators, and really nice rotary volume pots instead of faders... in a different layout, obviously.

You have a ton of other 'controllers' and 'all-in-one consoles' to choose from, too, not to mention the fact your main problem is likely simply the wrong level into the current controller you have (too low or too high).

Thanks!

 

[The3dk]

The die is cast I have decided to buy a Pionneer DJM A9, because of the following reasons.
I have tried a Ecler Warm 2 rotary mixer and directly returned it - sound was similar to the DJM 600...
Allthough everbody is telling the sound of the Ecler is superb - I could not hear it
When connecting and testing the A9 it was directly a huge difference in sound.
I am using the line in channels - between mixer and Technics MKII record playes the Musical Fidelity V90-LPS phono-preamps are connected.
WOW - I am amazed with that (at the moment)
As Euphonia is Rotary and I am not used to this, the A9 is superior because it has the same structure and build up like the DJM 600.

Still open: How to proceed with digital playing, as I don't have 2 playes like cdj-3000 X or similar.
At the moment I still go with the DDJ SX3 (which is digitally totally fine for me), but have no idea how to place both mixers (A9 & SX3) and the recordplayers in agood way... as all is taking about 2m+ in a row...

Thank you all!

 

[The3dk]

Some measurements of AlphaTheta euphonia. Excerpted from a previous AP sequence report.
Based on the measurements, if OP require high fidelity, you should rule out the euphonia.
If you don't require high fidelity, you may like the sound of the euphonia. You'll need to try it out to see if it's to your liking.

Do you know if something like this exists for the Pioneer DJM A9? And if so, what is your impression about the measurements? THANK YOU!!!

 

[Reticuli]

I think you should investigate why you are having problems with your current controller first, like levels settings from what you're piping into the controller or levels settings in the software you're using. The A9 is not going to make your digital DJing software sound any better, and there's no reason you can't get good sound going into phono or line inputs on a controller.

 

[The3dk]

I think you should investigate why you are having problems with your current controller first, like levels settings from what you're piping into the controller or levels settings in the software you're using. The A9 is not going to make your digital DJing software sound any better, and there's no reason you can't get good sound going into phono or line inputs on a controller.

Just to explain why that all is

I used to have the DJM 600 (for vinyl) and a separate controller (for digital).
My dream / vision / wish was just having one mixer/controller for both vinyl and digital.
Thus I bought the DDJ SX3, which in my opinion is for about 1.000 EUR a (semi-)professional piece of technic.
After upgrading my stereo system, I heard severe problems when playing vinyl through the DDJ SX3.
So I investigated. Others had also complains about this issue and asked Pioneer for advice..
In their reply it came all clear to me!
A mixer is a mixer - a controller is a controller - I wish I have known this before.

The issue seems, that there are no, or cheap phono preamps inside.
Thats why playing vinyl is so bad in quality even if you turn up the gain in "full" and using external preamps via line-in.
Pioneer says for playing DVS (MP3, digital on Vinyl) it works fine, which I can confirm,
Others complained also about the names on the inputs...
Why Pioneer is calling it Phono-In when it is only DVS in....

Below is the reply i found, relatetd to DDJ 1000, but it is for all of them the same.
THERE WILL BE PLACES THAT DON'T SHINE AS BRIGHTLY - hahahahaha...
Somehow this seems to be price politics and marketing.
In certain ways they have to justify why the upper end costs 2-3.000+ EUR's...

All in all I am pretty dissatisfied with this conclusion.
But it brought me the A9 - which is spot on in sound- vinyl is gigantic!
Now I have to watch out for 2 seperate players (loose another fortune) and can then get rid of the DDJ SX3....

Thank you!

PS: Of course all this is not written in the instructions / product description page, or somewhere else... Even my retailer did not know it, I assume

 

[nagster]

Do you know if something like this exists for the Pioneer DJM A9? And if so, what is your impression about the measurements? THANK YOU!!!

Unfortunately, I don't have any measurement results for the DJM-A9. It's a candidate for measurement, but there are no concrete plans yet.
That said, it's advertised as having high sound quality, so I expect it to have at least higher fidelity than the euphonia. It seems that the euphonia is not advertised as having either high sound quality or high fidelity.

But it brought me the A9 - which is spot on in sound- vinyl is gigantic!
Now I have to watch out for 2 seperate players (loose another fortune) and can then get rid of the DDJ SX3....

Is it possible to send song data directly from your computer to the DJM-A9 via USB and control it with the DDJ-SX3?
If that were possible, it would avoid the drawbacks of CDJs. I'm not very familiar with DJ devices so I don't know if that's possible.

 

[Reticuli]

Just to explain why that all is

I used to have the DJM 600 (for vinyl) and a separate controller (for digital).
My dream / vision / wish was just having one mixer/controller for both vinyl and digital.
Thus I bought the DDJ SX3, which in my opinion is for about 1.000 EUR a (semi-)professional piece of technic.
After upgrading my stereo system, I heard severe problems when playing vinyl through the DDJ SX3.
So I investigated. Others had also complains about this issue and asked Pioneer for advice..
In their reply it came all clear to me!
A mixer is a mixer - a controller is a controller - I wish I have known this before.

The issue seems, that there are no, or cheap phono preamps inside.
Thats why playing vinyl is so bad in quality even if you turn up the gain in "full" and using external preamps via line-in.
Pioneer says for playing DVS (MP3, digital on Vinyl) it works fine, which I can confirm,
Others complained also about the names on the inputs...
Why Pioneer is calling it Phono-In when it is only DVS in....

Below is the reply i found, relatetd to DDJ 1000, but it is for all of them the same.
THERE WILL BE PLACES THAT DON'T SHINE AS BRIGHTLY - hahahahaha...
Somehow this seems to be price politics and marketing.
In certain ways they have to justify why the upper end costs 2-3.000+ EUR's...

View attachment 502428

All in all I am pretty dissatisfied with this conclusion.
But it brought me the A9 - which is spot on in sound- vinyl is gigantic!
Now I have to watch out for 2 seperate players (loose another fortune) and can then get rid of the DDJ SX3....

Thank you!

PS: Of course all this is not written in the instructions / product description page, or somewhere else... Even my retailer did not know it, I assume

Why do you care about the quality of a controller's phonos if you have 2 Musical Fidelity V90-LPS preamps you like? Just pipe their line outputs into your existing controller. I get that the V90 doesn't have volume controls, but if you've got too hot of a signal from them to the controller (which you should be able to confirm or debunk using any audio or DJ software connected to the controller to check levels), then get some lower-output styli. I bet you're at only half or less input level than what the controller is even rated for. Maybe ADC quality differences?

If you want a high-end DJ mixer that could replace outboard phono stages, you aren't going to find much out there that's comparable on sound quality. Maybe Mackie d.2 / d.4 (short path VCA), old Denon X1700 (discrete stages), Rane MP2015 (rather weird design with FIR filters) could get close, but really, I'd suggest Formula Sound and SuperStereo with adjustable capacitance for audiophile phono without the potential hassle of external preamps. Pioneer DJ / Alpha Theta is passible with vinyl, but probably not on the same level as Musical Fidelity kit.

Unfortunately, I don't have any measurement results for the DJM-A9. It's a candidate for measurement, but there are no concrete plans yet.
That said, it's advertised as having high sound quality, so I expect it to have at least higher fidelity than the euphonia. It seems that the euphonia is not advertised as having either high sound quality or high fidelity.


Is it possible to send song data directly from your computer to the DJM-A9 via USB and control it with the DDJ-SX3?
If that were possible, it would avoid the drawbacks of CDJs. I'm not very familiar with DJ devices so I don't know if that's possible.

The Euphonia is the A9 (in iso mode) with a different effects section, the sophisticated rotary pots, and a Rubert Neve transformer effector in an extra DAC -> trans -> ADC loop. It is advertised by Alpha Theta as having 'high sound quality', just admittedly that it's going to measure on the bench with higher distortion like any DJ mixer with colorful-sounding discrete & FET stages like the Condesa or tubes like the SuperStereo or Mastersounds V mixers... adding something euphonic but different than those others, especially to sparse acoustic arrangements like funk and old house, as well as minimalist stuff like some techno. Probably not the best for running tech trance, industrial, shoegaze, etc, with their own baked-in distortion, though these don't sound any worse through it (on average) than from the Denon DJ Prime players' Engine OS firmware that does aggressive, computationally-cheap processing. With the CDJs and the Euphonia, I would argue it's usually better sound than through an entire Prime setup.

Unfortunately, if you want to measure the Euphonia without transformer you currently can't just do that with a setting on the mixer like the prototype had but instead would need to test either the headphone jack's PFL signal or the channel effects sends out the rear. You should get equivalent to the A9 that way. If you run the signal below the 0dB nominal point on the meters, Alpha Theta claims you get insignificant transformer saturation effect and it should be near transparent. You lose about 3dB of TDR due to a pad before the Trans Loop DAC, but that won't contribute to overt distortion. I can confirm that low on the meters is *less* transformer effect, but probably not zero, and you definitely aren't bypassing the extra DAC & ADC stages, though they're the same quality chips from ESS as the other inputs & outputs. Personally, I think that's a poor replacement for assignability / bypassability of Trans Loop they dropped. I'm curious if it's something they can add back in firmware and Utility menu settings, though.

Oh, and to correct the information floating around on Euphonia that is relevant to testing: unity is not 7, 8, or 8.5 on the bottom rotaries. Think of that aforementioned pad, then remember Spinal Tap: