DIYINHK DAC Measurements

[meooms]

Great work Michael! Your ES9016 with the opa1612 is really performing very nicely.

As you know, I did switch to the DIYINHK ES9038 board, with the TP IVY-III IV stages. Though subjectively the noise floor was quite a bit lower, your measurements clearly show the importance of good implementation for this chip. So, though very happy with the sound of the ES9038 board, I also ordered the COSMOS the see how my setup performs objectively.
But more importantly, it will give me the opportunity to optimize the power wiring/connections (this had much effect in your measurements to my surprise) and to try out the ES9038 THD compensation. The board has various options for power, e.g. 2 separate AVCC supplies, separate power for the clock.

I agree that buying the OKTO DAC8 pro is the way to go, but - although a total noob - I really like to tinker with this stuff as a hobby.
When I have results I will post them here, but it will take some time.

 

[Veri]

-No reason to go with the ES9038 over the ES9016, I am also using the "good" channels of the ES9038, expect inner channels to be worse
-ES9016 + Ian Canada I/V + OPA 1612 is the second best 8+ channel DAC I have measured so far, only surpassed by the Okto DAC8 pro
-Still think that once you add power supplies, I/V stages, op amps, deal with turn on / off pops and add an enclosure the cost is quite high and you are better off with a commercial offering like the MOTU Ultralite Mk5 or Okto DAC8 pro

Michael

Surprised how much better the ESS9016 is doing, really quite clean result. Thanks for measuring and sharing!

 

[mdsimon2]

Great work Michael! Your ES9016 with the opa1612 is really performing very nicely.

As you know, I did switch to the DIYINHK ES9038 board, with the TP IVY-III IV stages. Though subjectively the noise floor was quite a bit lower, your measurements clearly show the importance of good implementation for this chip. So, though very happy with the sound of the ES9038 board, I also ordered the COSMOS the see how my setup performs objectively.
But more importantly, it will give me the opportunity to optimize the power wiring/connections (this had much effect in your measurements to my surprise) and to try out the ES9038 THD compensation. The board has various options for power, e.g. 2 separate AVCC supplies, separate power for the clock.

I agree that buying the OKTO DAC8 pro is the way to go, but - although a total noob - I really like to tinker with this stuff as a hobby.
When I have results I will post them here, but it will take some time.

Nice! It will be interesting to see how the IVY-III performs, it definitely seems like an external I/V offers the potential for improved performance.

So far power supply wiring has been one of the most important variables, I guess I didn't mention it my most recent posts but all of these most recent tests were done with extremely short wiring directly soldered on the DAC board side. I think the short wiring and because I am only driving 2 channels is why the performance was so good compared to previous measurements. I also plan on trying out a silent switcher + LT3045 regulator power supply to see if it offers the same performance (at least on the stock ES9016 board to which I have it directly soldered).

Michael

 

[mdsimon2]

Have a few more measurements with the stock ES9016 board and the Cosmos ADC.

First I wanted to see how the SilentSwitcher + LT3045 power supply performed, as noted in post #15 and previously measured with the MOTU M4 in post #16. This configuration has a pin header installed on top of the DAC board to interface with an I2S DSP like a miniSHARC and also has a local 100 MHz Crystek 575X oscillator installed on the DAC board. I also wanted to see how the DAC performed with more than 2 channels driven.

ES9016, SilentSwitcher PS, stock I/V, NE5532, miniSHARC DSP, local oscillator, 2 V output, 3.5 V ADC input setting, 2 channels driven. THD = -111.9 dB, N = -112.8 dB, THD+N = -109.4 dB

ES9016, SilentSwitcher PS, stock I/V, NE5532, miniSHARC DSP, local oscillator, 2 V output, 3.5 V ADC input setting, 4 channels driven. THD = -103.0 dB, N = -110.1 dB, THD+N = -102.2 dB

ES9016, SilentSwitcher PS, stock I/V, NE5532, miniSHARC DSP, local oscillator, 2 V output, 3.5 V ADC input setting, 8 channels driven. THD = -91.5 dB, N = -108.0 dB, THD+N = -91.4 dB

So clearly things fall off quite a bit from a THD perspective with more channels driven. I also see the same high frequency noise rise that I saw in previous measurements but with the shorter wiring the noise level remains quite low.

To try and isolate the issue I switched back to my stock ES9016 with the DIYINHK XMOS and linear power supply. I played a 1 kHz 24 bit test tone from LMS / squeezelite and used CamillaDSP to route to more channels.

ES9016, linear PS, stock I/V, NE5532, XMOS / CamillaDSP, 2 V output, 3.5 V ADC input setting, 2 channels driven. THD = -109.2 dB, N = -112.1 dB, THD+N = -107.4 dB

ES9016, linear PS, stock I/V, NE5532, XMOS / CamillaDSP, 2 V output, 3.5 V ADC input setting, 2 channels driven. THD = -97.5 dB, N = -112.1 dB, THD+N = -97.4 dB

ES9016, linear PS, stock I/V, NE5532, XMOS / CamillaDSP, 2 V output, 3.5 V ADC input setting, 2 channels driven. THD = -88.4 dB, N = -112.1 dB, THD+N = -88.4 dB

THD really ramps up with the linear PS but get none of the high frequency noise rise of the SilentSwitcher.

I also checked my Ultralite Mk5 with all 10 channels driven and I get absolutely no change in THD or noise. Definitely another thing to consider when comparing these DIYINHK boards to commercial offerings.

Michael

 

[mga2009]

Michael,

If you would want more than 10 analog outputs to use with CamillaDSP, is it possible to use 2x FR 18i20, the first one to use all 10 analog outputs and also use ADAT output to feed the second interface thru ADAT input, and use the second interface`s 10 analog outputs?

Is it possible to control the volume of all 10 analog outputs + ADAT output on the firsr interface? (I assume not, and the only way to control all volume would the the source volume).

I guess that an AVR with good preamp output (Denon X3500 - 3600- 3700) could feed 2x usb interfaces controlled by CamillaDSP and have a "cheap" 20 channel active crossover system (3x 3way for LCR, 4x independent SW, 2x 3way surrounds)... or I am just dreaming?

 

[mdsimon2]

Michael,

If you would want more than 10 analog outputs to use with CamillaDSP, is it possible to use 2x FR 18i20, the first one to use all 10 analog outputs and also use ADAT output to feed the second interface thru ADAT input, and use the second interface`s 10 analog outputs?

Is it possible to control the volume of all 10 analog outputs + ADAT output on the firsr interface? (I assume not, and the only way to control all volume would the the source volume).

I guess that an AVR with good preamp output (Denon X3500 - 3600- 3700) could feed 2x usb interfaces controlled by CamillaDSP and have a "cheap" 20 channel active crossover system (3x 3way for LCR, 4x independent SW, 2x 3way surrounds)... or I am just dreaming?

You can definitely get 18 channels of analog output as you describe with 2x 18i20s. First one would be connected via USB for CamillaDSP and the second one would be clocked by the first interface and would be a "dumb" ADAT DA converter. Although you can definitely get 20 channels of analog output CamillaDSP would only be able to process 18 channels.

Another option to get 20 channels of analog output processed in CamillaDSP would be to create an ALSA aggregate device as described here -> https://github.com/HEnquist/camilladsp-config, this should work as you can clock the second interface from the first.

You are correct that the 18i20 volume knob will only control analog output channels, not ADAT output channels. However, if you use CamillaDSP for volume control you can have it act on all 10 analog output channels as well as the 8 ADAT output channels.

Definitely seems like a feasible option. You will want to keep the chunk size down as much as practicable with resampling disabled (should be feasible if you are using analog inputs where the same clock is used for input and output) for latency purposes. I use CamillaDSP on my A/V setup (just simple 2 channel from an AppleTV) and have no issues with latency.

Michael

 

[mga2009]

You can definitely get 18 channels of analog output as you describe with 2x 18i20s. First one would be connected via USB for CamillaDSP and the second one would be clocked by the first interface and would be a "dumb" ADAT DA converter. Although you can definitely get 20 channels of analog output CamillaDSP would only be able to process 18 channels.

Another option to get 20 channels of analog output processed in CamillaDSP would be to create an ALSA aggregate device as described here -> https://github.com/HEnquist/camilladsp-config, this should work as you can clock the second interface from the first.

You are correct that the 18i20 volume knob will only control analog output channels, not ADAT output channels. However, if you use CamillaDSP for volume control you can have it act on all 10 analog output channels as well as the 8 ADAT output channels.

Definitely seems like a feasible option. You will want to keep the chunk size down as much as practicable with resampling disabled (should be feasible if you are using analog inputs where the same clock is used for input and output) for latency purposes. I use CamillaDSP on my A/V setup (just simple 2 channel from an AppleTV) and have no issues with latency.

Michael

Thanks for your help.

Although this is a little off topic, I am on the verge of buying a Focusrite 18i20 3rd to use it as 10 channel DAC conected to a Windows 11 PC and use Equalizer APO for all my EQ, room EQ, FIR filters, etc., as I do use my PC as media source (games, music, movies, etc.).

Thanks to your help, I do know that I can use a single volume know in the Focusrite to control all 10 analog outputs, so it's great to have a single volume control but... reading the 18i20 user manual (pg 21) I noticed this:

"Windows users: In Windows, surround sound can only be used in software supporting multichannel ASIO. In most cases this will be your DAW, and in general, DAWs capable of mixing in surround allow you to set the speaker mapping up in the DAW’s Audio Output Preferences or I/O Settings page."

For what I understand, I will not be able to use Equalizer APO with the 18i20 when in multichannel, am I correct? What about the MOTU Ultralite mk5 and the DIYINHK DAC, do you know if they have this limitation?

Update: OTOH MOTU's manual say: "The UltraLite-mk5 provides multi-channel audio input and output for Core Audio compatible audio applications on the Mac and ASIO or Wave compatible applications on Windows" What is "Wave"? It's not WDM, no DirectSound, no WASAPI


Cheers

 

[mdsimon2]

Thanks for your help.

Although this is a little off topic, I am on the verge of buying a Focusrite 18i20 3rd to use it as 10 channel DAC conected to a Windows 11 PC and use Equalizer APO for all my EQ, room EQ, FIR filters, etc., as I do use my PC as media source (games, music, movies, etc.).

Thanks to your help, I do know that I can use a single volume know in the Focusrite to control all 10 analog outputs, so it's great to have a single volume control but... reading the 18i20 user manual (pg 21) I noticed this:

"Windows users: In Windows, surround sound can only be used in software supporting multichannel ASIO. In most cases this will be your DAW, and in general, DAWs capable of mixing in surround allow you to set the speaker mapping up in the DAW’s Audio Output Preferences or I/O Settings page."

For what I understand, I will not be able to use Equalizer APO with the 18i20 when in multichannel, am I correct? What about the MOTU Ultralite mk5 and the DIYINHK DAC, do you know if they have this limitation?

Update: OTOH MOTU's manual say: "The UltraLite-mk5 provides multi-channel audio input and output for Core Audio compatible audio applications on the Mac and ASIO or Wave compatible applications on Windows" What is "Wave"? It's not WDM, no DirectSound, no WASAPI


Cheers

Unfortunately I know less than zero about Windows audio as I only use Linux and Mac. Sorry!

Michael

 

[mga2009]

Unfortunately I know less than zero about Windows audio as I only use Linux and Mac. Sorry!

Michael

Thanks anyways! Still all the info you provided is hugely valuable, as in the future I want to use 2 Focusrite 18i20 + CamillaDSP and conenct the pre-out of my AVR for an active XO 5.1 system.

I will try to get a hold on how Equalizer APO and ASIO work, and also write to MOTU and Focusrite, and report back.

UPDATE:

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360013865959-Configuring-a-Focusrite-interface-for-multichannel-Surround-Sound-playback-on-Windows

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360013865959

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360013509640

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360016392940-How-to-use-several-inputs-on-your-Scarlett-3rd-Gen-within-video-call-software-on-Windows

Cheers

 

[thulle]

I am on the verge of buying a Focusrite 18i20 3rd to use it as 10 channel DAC

I did some measurements comparing it with 2nd gen if you check my post history. I haven't verified it all when running on battery power, but it seems like the 2nd gen measures slightly better in many ways. If the differences otherwise is of no interest it might be an idea to save some money by buying a used 2nd gen until something better shows up. MOTU mk5 seem to perform much better, but Linux support seem too shaky for me to try it out. (Edit: me misremembering, that was the Ultralite AVB that I considered briefly due to the mk5 being out of stock. There's a long thread over at linuxmusicians.com about it).
That said, I'm happy with my gen3 so far.

 

[mdsimon2]

I did some measurements comparing it with 2nd gen if you check my post history. I haven't verified it all when running on battery power, but it seems like the 2nd gen measures slightly better in many ways. If the differences otherwise is of no interest it might be an idea to save some money by buying a used 2nd gen until something better shows up. MOTU mk5 seem to perform much better, but Linux support seem too shaky for me to try it out.
That said, I'm happy with my gen3 so far.

What seems "shaky" about the Mk5 linux support? I've been using it on linux for about a year now and it is rock solid if you use a reasonably modern kernel. It has none of the bit crushing / channel swapping issues that an Ultralite AVB has for example. Biggest issue is finding a Mk5 as I haven't seen one in stock for 6+ months.

Michael

 

[mga2009]

I did some measurements comparing it with 2nd gen if you check my post history. I haven't verified it all when running on battery power, but it seems like the 2nd gen measures slightly better in many ways. If the differences otherwise is of no interest it might be an idea to save some money by buying a used 2nd gen until something better shows up. MOTU mk5 seem to perform much better, but Linux support seem too shaky for me to try it out.
That said, I'm happy with my gen3 so far.

I can't find the comparison between Gen2 and Gen3... If the Gen2 performs the same, then I have no problem in getting that and save a few bucks. I am not looking SOTA just a mid-range AVR style performance.

Do you use your Gen3 in Windows? Can you report on multichannel in Windows? does it work only with ASIO?

 

[thulle]

What seems "shaky" about the Mk5 linux support? I've been using it on linux for about a year now and it is rock solid if you use a reasonably modern kernel. It has none of the bit crushing / channel swapping issues that an Ultralite AVB has for example. Biggest issue is finding a Mk5 as I haven't seen one in stock for 6+ months.

Michael

Oh yeah, sorry, I considered the AVB since mk5 was nowhere to be seen. Too little sleep currently, so mixed them up.

I can't find the comparison between Gen2 and Gen3... If the Gen2 performs the same, then I have no problem in getting that and save a few bucks. I am not looking SOTA just a mid-range AVR style performance.

Do you use your Gen3 in Windows? Can you report on multichannel in Windows? does it work only with ASIO?

Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup

AS MY TITLE CAUSED CONFUSION- THIS IS FOR A STEREO SETUP (NOT THEATER OR SURROUND) It seems that the optimal way forward with sound quality is to get everything refined in the digital world, before sending it to great amps. In my opinion, this means using software to set active crossovers and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sorry, only using Linux, have no windows PC to try it out on.

 

[Kaameelis]

"Windows users: In Windows, surround sound can only be used in software supporting multichannel ASIO. In most cases this will be your DAW, and in general, DAWs capable of mixing in surround allow you to set the speaker mapping up in the DAW’s Audio Output Preferences or I/O Settings page."

For what I understand, I will not be able to use Equalizer APO with the 18i20 when in multichannel, am I correct? What about the MOTU Ultralite mk5 and the DIYINHK DAC, do you know if they have this limitation?

You can use EQ APO over ASIO with Voicemeeter, EQ APO works then like Voicemeeter plugin and DAC can be connected to Voicemeeter over ASIO, I had used this combo with 8 channels ESI Gigaport EX.

 

[mga2009]

You can use EQ APO over ASIO with Voicemeeter, EQ APO works then like Voicemeeter plugin and DAC can be connected to Voicemeeter over ASIO, I had used this combo with 8 channels ESI Gigaport EX.

Thanks! Yup, I was aware of these but read (somewhere, have to look it again) that these introduce some "relevant" latency versus using WDM drivers.

OTOH, Motu Ultralite mk3 (I assume the mk4 and mk5) say in it's user guide:
"MOTU WDM Driver Allows any WDM-driver compatible audio software to do multichannel input and output with the UltraLite-mk3."

So, I would assume that MOTU Ultralite mk5 will do simultaneous 10 channel output in windows using WDM which will work directly with EqualizerAPO.

What about the ESI Gigaport EX? It only have ASIO drivers for Windows? How does it perform? It's very competitive price wise, but it seems it does not have a very good output sensitivity (-10dBu?)

 

[Kaameelis]

Yes, some latency is definitely present, only I did not measured it or know how big it is as I was using it for phase linearisation/correction/filtration with FIR filters with pulse length about 1.6 seconds and then there is no sense to care about additional latency in milliseconds. I generated FIR filters from REW measurements with rePhase tool.
ESI Gigaport EX is good for its price, not the best but reasonable. As I remember full scale output was somewhere over 3V RMS. It has ASIO and also WDM drivers. Only problem I find with it was ESI control panel software with volume control what had sometime strange cases where volume control was not working correctly.

 

[mga2009]

For those interested, Audient just release the EVO 16 which has an 8 channel DAC with an aleged Dynamic Range of 121db (A wighted). IDK if Audient is a respectable company nor if it can compare to Motu or RME, but it's nice to see there are more 8 channel dacs in the market.

I am reading the manual now to check if the volume control can be used simultaneusly for all 8 analog outputs (and maybe digital outputs).

Specifications - EVO

evo.audio

 

[mdsimon2]

For those interested, Audient just release the EVO 16 which has an 8 channel DAC with an aleged Dynamic Range of 121db (A wighted). IDK if Audient is a respectable company nor if it can compare to Motu or RME, but it's nice to see there are more 8 channel dacs in the market.

I am reading the manual now to check if the volume control can be used simultaneusly for all 8 analog outputs (and maybe digital outputs).

Specifications - EVO

evo.audio

Unfortunately as of now the knob only controls channels 1-2. I asked Audient about it and they said they are considering adding functionality to have it control multiple channels.

I agree that it has excellent noise performance and seems to be a good value. I posted a bit about it in this thread -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?posts/1219543/.

Michael