DIY vs Finished speakers vs Used market

[DanielT]

Why doubtful? I have an example is DXT Mon182. Do you have any example of commercial speakers with budget of 1100€ to compete with that speaker in two way category, from top to bottom frequencies. And please don't bring any speaker with SB17xxx as sole woofer as they are inferior in bass.

The example I mentioned SB SB15NBAC30-8
acts as a midrange. I haven't said anything about that driver in a two-way speaker design.
Having said that about the specific driver, no one expects any bass monsters with small two-way speakers, regardless of which bass driver is in them.

Until some measure is available, I do not trust any cheap commercial speakers in low frequency region. Because bass is the product of at least two of those factors: powerful motor, big radiation area and big box volume. If radiation area and box volume is not big, in the case of those Wharfedale's speaker you just posted, then the only way to get good bass quality is powerful and optimized motor, and that costs money. Even KEF with their manufacturing at least equal to Wharfedale must use the inferior woofer on their Q KEF Concerto, and the price of them is even little higher than the Wharfedale you posted.

We'll see how the new Wharfedale measure. There is potential, considering how well the Diamond series measured in the past.
Too little bass? Add a sub or DIY two bass boxes that play up to around 300Hz-500 Hz.

 

[DanielT]

Think bigger!

Who can afford a five way Cessaro or big Avant Garde etc?

I've had great fun and got increasing better sound evolving my systems.
From humble 2 way. Bass box + horn.
Adding mid horn, then mid bass and then tapped horn subs.
To full 5 way front loaded.
Choosing drivers, amps.
Using simulators to predict freq resp etc outcomes and proof designs.
Going from passive XOs, to active with DSP.
Time and phase aligning etc.
Trying different horn profiles etc.
Always measuring. Firstly with Holm Impulse and then REW to set up and refine.

You can't do that just buying!

5 way as it was in 2015.

View attachment 510725

2.4m tall tapped horn subs are behind the horns / lazy ribbons.

Then I got into Synergy Multi Entry Horns. Coherent phase from sub 100Hz to 10kHz +
Whole other ball game.
Chosing drivers for hifi rather than PA as the originals have.

View attachment 510726

Same tapped horn subs. Here as a 4 way.

You just can't buy this kind of DIY fun.

Next up will be my own take on Synergy Horns.
3d printed complex precision throat, FIR DSP...
Gonna be fun.

Really big speakers, horns or not horns, of course, DIY has a role there. There is not much commercial demand for such (nice) monsters.
But as @Audionaut pointed out:

Difficult if you want to have some bookshelf speakers.

That said, if we look at it generally and not only from the perspective of TS needs, big speakers, custom-made. DIY fits like a glove.
For example, this DIY horn, which is also used as a TV stand:

If you have access to machines, are a retired engineer with a lot of free time. If you can buy a hell of a lot of neodymium magnets at a good price, you can build something like...well I don't even know if there are commercial AMT speakers this big. Solhaga's AMT Line Source. Some of the best I've ever heard:

DIY thread about them here, with various pictures, videos and measurements:

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - SALS?A! - en väldigt lång historia

Edit:
One more example. Custom-made (at the appropriate height) line arrays are suitable for DIY:

 

[Wolf11Man]

In the low cost area DIYS speaker building is a hobby like model aircraft or bottle ships. You spent time, money and get something of sentimental value.

I have some pairs of small DENON two ways, made by Mission, bought on sale for € 50. I can't even buy the components, wood and glue for that money to make one, let allone a pair. Changing the crossovers electrolytics for some basic, €1,50 film capacitors made them really enjoyable. I think the Mission team didn't have to hold back on the sound quality you can get from simply and cheaply produced drivers, because the pair was for a mini component system. You can't compete in DIYS with that kind of mass-produced stuff.

In the high time of DIYS, the 80's-90's, we had a shop in Hamburg, Germany, where you could audition any serious, known kit, available on the market. The guy had a Hafler amp, CD player and a nice analog player. You could bring your records and CD's and switch between all the speakers. The kits where presented in professional housings and consisted of exactly the parts he sold to you. Once I even brought and compared my DIYS amp to the Hafler on his most expensive speaker of that time, a huge Dynaudio 5-way (no result, both sounded identical).
If you came directly from a listening session at some high end studio, you scratched your head how it could be you got so much sound quality for so little money, just by building a box from cheap wood. I took a lot of friends that never had any interest in DIYS to that place, almost all of them build a pair. That taught me how differently people grade sound, by the way.
Today, compared to then, DIYS kits are much better and more refined, but not equaly more expensive. Today driver production is a fraction of the cost, as most high end stuff comes from China, Indonesia and the like, not Denmark, Norway, France, Germany or the US. Also precission has become cheap, a CNC center doesn't care whether it is working in Germany or South China. You find $ 50 DIYS market tweeter in $ 15,000 speakers and any high school kid can affort a measuring system that was not even available for $ 100,000 in my youth. At least in Europe the good DIYS speaker can match hardly any high end product.

People that one day decide to buy some expensive drivers, screw them in a box and do some crossover simulation, because "any idiot can do a crossover with the right tools" give DIYS a bad name. This was the same 40 years ago. Only difference, they used simple formulas instead of computer tools.

 

[Gorgonzola]

I'll stand by my Zaph Audio ZRT (Zaph Revelator Tower). Not my own design though I've done that too.

Mine are the single mid-bass version. Despite, (or maybe partly because), of the relatively pricey Scan-Speak drivers, I figure I saved at least 50% over commercially finished speakers.

See THIS discussion by a very close friend of mine

 

[DanielT]

In addition to full-fledged DIY projects, we also tinker with DIY. That in itself can also be fun. Here is my JPW P1. Reformed bass woofer edges (the old ones had rotted away) plus plastic vinyl glued on. The cost of that, a few hamburger meals.

JPW P1, which I plug in sometimes. With an 8 inch bass and a 3/4 inch tweeter, they shouldn't sound as good as they do. They are like the bumblebee that couldn't fly but does it anyway.
On the verge of flying I should add. They are not speakers in the higher hi-fi school, but fun. Sound-wise, my used Wharfedale Diamond 220 are better though. More even and consistent.
(JPW P1, They might be like a tube amp that adds distortion and/or a bit of wanky FR. It can sometimes, for a change, be fun to listen to.)

 

[Jonazkur]

These 8” cost me 2k€ to build. Can easily build diy with purifi 6.5” woofers and good tweeter and waveguide for 1500. But you just need measurement gear ofc. Value will be way better than commercial.

 

[DanielT]

These 8” cost me 2k€ to build. Can easily build diy with purifi 6.5” woofers and good tweeter and waveguide for 1500. But you just need measurement gear ofc. Value will be way better than commercial.

Damn what a neat,stylish and well-built DIY.
That's the good way to make a speaker with an 8 inch bass woffer and a 1 inch tweeter.

This is not how you should do it. Lack of WG in a two-way design with an 8 inch bass woffer and a 1 inch tweeter, at a cost of :

They have so many models and they're not exactly cheap (can cost over $100K)

Audio Note speakers

What's the deal with Audio Note speakers ? They have so many models and they're not exactly cheap (can cost over $100K) And it seems they're "legendary " speakers on other audiophile forums. What's so special about them ?

www.audiosciencereview.com

My aforementioned JPW P1 in the post above , even worse BUT they only cost, if I remember correctly around $40 when I bought them a few years ago so ...well then you can't really make any big demands on excellent sound.

 

[Jonazkur]

Damn what a neat,stylish and well-built DIY.
That's the good way to make a speaker with an 8 inch bass woffer and a 1 inch tweeter.

This is not how you should do it. Lack of WG in a two-way design with an 8 inch bass woffer and a 1 inch tweeter, at a cost of :

They have so many models and they're not exactly cheap (can cost over $100K)

Audio Note speakers

What's the deal with Audio Note speakers ? They have so many models and they're not exactly cheap (can cost over $100K) And it seems they're "legendary " speakers on other audiophile forums. What's so special about them ?

www.audiosciencereview.com

My aforementioned JPW P1 in the post above , even worse BUT they only cost, if I remember correctly around $40 when I bought them a few years ago so ...well then you can't really make any big demands on excellent sound.

Yea you can build this exact same but with 18cm waveguide/horn and purifi 6.5” for much less. I also have these cheaper ones with different horn and woofer in sealed box.

 

[eddantes]

If you want value (with very little risk) you buy used - speakers are very robust products with great longevity (unless you are buying from a meth head at a trailer park - chances are they will perform as expected).

If you want a bit of fun and a known good result - build a kit.

If you want more fun and are willing to work hard or wait for a result - go diy alpha to omega. The things I've built are satisfying in many ways, but measurements show that I haven't reached even mediocre commercial levels. Oh well - there's always the next speaker!

 

[Roland68]

You are trying to cheat by moving the goalposts. The tread starter asked about equalling commercial speakers in the EUR 500-1500 price bracket. (1) What does it even mean for a EUR 500 commercial speaker to "stand out" and (2) whatever it means, good DIY can beat it for the same price.

Please don't take my statement out of context; that's neither professional nor kind. The statement was clearly a reply to the post I quoted.
I've already mentioned my recommendations in previous posts, but only based on my own experience.

There are several loudspeakers on the market that stand out based on measurements and listening experiences, also in terms of price (market price, not MSRP).
For example, the Elac DBR62, currently on sale for €400/pair or less, is hard to beat even considering the cost of materials alone, excluding the wood.

In my opinion, this also includes speakers like the Heco Aurora 300/700/1000, the Elac FS 247.4 (for €600 or less per speaker), etc., or various speakers from manufacturers like Ascend, Polk, AsciLab, Philharmonic Audio, etc. Some of these speakers involve an unusually high level of material and cabinet construction, which clearly distinguishes them from other manufacturers in terms of price-performance ratio.

These are two points that make the decision between DIY and ready-made/used speakers very difficult if you want to achieve these results, although it is certainly possible.
But basically, you can build competitive speakers for as little as €100-150 per speaker without a cabinet, especially if you assemble the crossover components yourself and use much cheaper industrial components for the capacitors.

And I'm talking exclusively about existing DIY speakers that already exist.
Because if there's one thing there's no shortage of, it's the selection of ready-made DIY speakers in the world, but more on that in another post, otherwise it will get too confusing.

 

[rdenney]

…
Edit:
One more example. Custom-made (at the appropriate height) line arrays are suitable for DIY:
View attachment 510772

Roger Russell (RIP) was making line-array speakers like these before he passed, and after retiring from McIntosh (where he had been in charge of their speaker department during the Gordon Gow period). He made a strong case for the concept, and he is someone who didn’t sell woo or magic. They were expensive! If I wanted that type of speaker, DIY would be the only practical way to get them. But they wouldn’t be anywhere near the OP’s price point by the time one buys the 50 or so needed drivers. And, they need special equalization and a couple of subs.

Rick “actually looked into making a pair of those” Denney

 

[Multiway]

I could definitely make Multi Entry Horns like in my pic for under 1500€ budget.
Careful choice of drivers, 4 budget amps, miniDSP flex 8 even.
Could even go 2nd hand / most of us have some spare amps.
Add sub of choice.

Satisfaction guaranteed

 

[DanielT]

Roger Russell (RIP) was making line-array speakers like these before he passed, and after retiring from McIntosh (where he had been in charge of their speaker department during the Gordon Gow period). He made a strong case for the concept, and he is someone who didn’t sell woo or magic. They were expensive! If I wanted that type of speaker, DIY would be the only practical way to get them. But they wouldn’t be anywhere near the OP’s price point by the time one buys the 50 or so needed drivers. And, they need special equalization and a couple of subs.

Rick “actually looked into making a pair of those” Denney

I'd guess with TC9 for example, which is a good driver, 50 pieces with a quantity discount, a total of around $1000?

Then a lot of milling of the 50 holes needed, but if you have the time and equipment then of course why not. Plus then having a fairly large listening room, with a fairly long listening distance, to place them in.

I think this DIY turned out nice. Pictures, video and measurements in the thread

Little Big Line Array Build

After building quite a few subwoofers and 2-way speakers over the years, I was looking for something different, and line arrays fit the bill nicely. Line arrays have some intriguing characteristics such as little loss of volume as you get further away, low distortion, and very slim enclosures...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Roland68]

I can't comment on the DIY speaker scene in the USA or other countries outside the EU, but in Germany/EU we have a large and active DIY scene that's been around since the 80s. It consists of at least two dedicated DIY speaker magazines (offering around 1000-1500 kits), several DIY shops with their own kits (definitely more than 100), manufacturers like Visaton (over 100 kits, and even over 200 including their archives), and various forums and blogs.
Among these are many inexpensive speakers, the so-called "cheap tricks," some costing less than €100 in materials (excluding wood) per speaker.

Some DIY shops allow you to filter DIY speakers by type, size, driver manufacturer, dimensions, technical specifications, and more. This includes several hundred speakers, certainly more than 500, or even 1000, across all price ranges.

Based on my experience, Heissmann Acoustics is always a clear recommendation.

Unfortunately, the Satorique kits are no longer available. The S1 and S4 could easily compete with ready-made loudspeakers costing many times more, in the high four- and five-figure price range.

The Acoustic Design magazine/shop of Udo Wohlgemuth is also always worth a visit. You can also listen to kits by appointment.

HiFi-Selbstbau - Das DIY Online Magazin / HSB Shop also has some interesting developments. In addition, the HSB Shop offers affordable and individually calibrated measurement microphones and a calibration service.

The loudspeakers developed by various users on ASR should also not be underestimated, starting with the relatively inexpensive kits from @XMechanik, such as the Mechano23 tested by Amir.

But this is just a small selection from what is probably well over 2000 loudspeaker kits.
The biggest problem, therefore, will be finding the right DIY loudspeaker from the mass of probably at least 2500 to perhaps over 5000 available worldwide.

 

[Waxx]

I think a lot are wrong about the goals of many diy'ers who build speakers. It's not cheaper than to buy a finished product, it's more fun and you can build the speakers you want (in form, style and sound). Idem with designing yourself. Most don't meet the quality of the top commercial speakers, but that is not what counts in most cases. And many commercial brands start with people who did diy and got something. A perfect example is Dutch & Dutch, where the builder started with an id and did design it with the help of the community at diyaudio.com and then build a brand arround the knowledge he did gain there.

If you want a cheaper top of the line speaker, diy is not the route to go, second hand is. Because untill you get to the point that you understand what a top level speaker require, you probally build aleardy quiet a few speakers and did spend way more on parts, tools and so than what a top level speaker would cost you. It's about the fun of building and designing and learning how speakers work. I do build speakers as hobby, but i don't expect that my builds will get the quality of top brands, i do it for fun and today I got quiet good results (in my book) from it. I could probally have bought a pair of Neumann KH420's or even big JBL's or Genelecs for it and have money left from what i did spend on it, but that would not be the fun and I would not have the knowledge that i have now...