DIY vs Finished speakers vs Used market

[sigbergaudio]

Your first paragraph is complete nonsense. I taught myself how to design and build 3-way, active DIY speakers in a little over a year. That included buying woodworking tools, learning how to build and finish the cabinets in lacewood veneer, learning about and buying crossovers, and learning how to use CLIO to test. It's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be, and the speakers are great. I'd put them up against any commercial speaker <$5000.

I am sure your speakers are great, but this is not the result most people achieve. I once talked to a magazine editor who had done a DIY-tour for an article, and visited maybe 20-30 DIYers to listen to their systems. They were all universally proud and happy about their systems, and the magazine editor had a three month headache from all the horrible sound.

I think the best route for OP is second hand commercial or proven DIY-kits.

 

[somebodyelse]

This is really interesting. Has anyone done a DIY design or kit with DSP crossover, and amplification between that and the individual drivers?

Linkwitz did several, starting with analog active crossovers before moving to DSP. The LXmini and LX521.4 are still available in kit form.

Heissmann have some specifically designed for DSP active crossovers, and will usually supply DSP crossover details for the models that usually use a passive crossover if you want to build them that way.

HifiBerry's BeoCreate was a colab with B&O for upcycling some of their older speakers. They've since added other DSP boards to their lineup.

The LCM is a 3D printed design with DSP crossover. IIRC the DSP parameters were improved based on Erin's measurements. I think the designer has used those DSP amp boards in other designs.

 

[Wolf11Man]

If you want to become a speaker builder with active DSP'd crossovers, a good exercise is to convert a good middle class passive speaker to active. You leave one speaker passive as is and activate the second one. Try to make the active speaker sound better than the passive one or at least as good. You simply do that by A/B checks. This will ground many overly enthusiastic first time designers.
It is no problem to retrofit the passive components later or activate the passive one too. No risk, only fun!

During loudspeaker development, especially when using your ears as the measuring instrument, it's crucial to have a reference that matches the desired result. Ideally, this would be a neutral speaker. You use it to calibrate your hearing, which has a tendency to make poor loudspeakers sound good with prolonged listening. Any consumption of alcohol has the same effect, so save the beer for later.

 

[Wolf11Man]

If you want to practice activating by DSP, a cheap option is to buy two two "BRU5" TPA3255 2x300W Bluetooth BT5.0 Amplifiers.
If you shop smart, you can get a pair with two basic power supplies around 100$ from Aliexpress.
You need two because the DSP always is identical for both channels. So one amp for the tweeter, one amp for the woofer.
It has all basic DSP functions, USB connector and a quite simple user interface. Much simpler than SIGMA Studio, which doesn't work so fast, not for anyone and needs a programer.
The Amplifier is very transparent, which means it "sounds good", power depends mainly on the supplies. 36 Volt/ 5A is fine for clean 100+100 Watt, so more than enough.
With those you can start to program your first active crossover in a few minutes. Hard to find something simpler and cheaper with good quality. If you don't use them for programing any more, you got two typical small size D-amps.
The low price leaves money left over for a usable measuring microphone.
You don't need to spend a 1000 Bucks for plate amps and don't even have to solder a single wire.

 

[rdenney]

I stand by my earlier comments. If the objective is to get a good set of speakers for the least amount, go with preowned speakers of good reputation and measurement. If the objective is to develop the new sub-hobby of making speakers, woodworking, gluing together kits, or pointing to the speakers and saying "I made that", then the kits need no further justification. But even building speakers from a kit is a significant investment in time, and time is precious and much more expensive than people realize.

Rick "who would spend that hundred hours doing things more personally compelling" Denney

 

[a4eaudio]

First speaker DIYS rule: You need years to build something that matches even low price industry products.

...your first paragraph is complete nonsense.

I appreciate JPAs subtleness. Before I read through the replies, I was going to reply to the quoted part above with a simple "Bullsh!t". Speaker design is NOT EASY - someone better be ready to put some time into it. Buying Purifi woofer and tweeter and thinking you will design a good speaker in a month is delusional (and I see it all of the time). But the idea you need years of education and years of experience is way overstating it.

Because how difficult that usually is can be seen in the hundreds or thousands of mediocre loudspeakers worldwide, even from experienced companies and developers, and the fact that only a few truly stand out.

You are trying to cheat by moving the goalposts. The tread starter asked about equalling commercial speakers in the EUR 500-1500 price bracket. (1) What does it even mean for a EUR 500 commercial speaker to "stand out" and (2) whatever it means, good DIY can beat it for the same price.

I stand by my earlier comments.

Your comments about the woodworking are 100% correct. If someone does not have the tools to build DIY speakers, it is not going to turn out well. But of course, if one doesn't have the tools to [INSERT SUBJECT HERE] then it isn't going to work out well.

I stand by me earlier comments...I actually have no idea what my earlier comments were as I'm not going back to check, but I'm sure I promoted DIY.

 

[Wolf11Man]

I know a lot of people that don't DIYS a speaker because of "I did it" or in search for a hobby, but simply because the well made kit is so much more value than a finished high end product. People that spend hours auditioning in HIFI studios and DIYS shops as well and realized the same money would result in 3 times higher audio quality. Others wanted a special veneer or color, those "made to order" HIFI speakers often have ridiculous surcharge and endless deliver time. The carpenter next door is not cheap, but will build whatever you desire, much faster.
I used to help a carpenter specialized in cabinet building for DIYS kit's at my business premises when he needed cabinets in special Car paint colors, as these were different from standard woodworking lacquers. More than once we had to match the color to a sample of nail enamel, WAF...
By the way, in exchange I learned a lot about wood working: Win-win.
If you don't have the option to listen to finished DIYS kit's, you may not know how good many of them are. You find a better DIYS kit for almost any commercial offer. Even with a handmade cabinet from a carpenter, your save huge on high price speakers.
There are therefore very rational reasons to build a loudspeaker yourself, with varying degrees of vertical integration.

Today the alternative of active pro monitors is there, a while ago these where much more expensive in comparison. It is somewhere between and above the other two options.

 

[mhardy6647]

Your comments about the woodworking are 100% correct. If someone does not have the tools to build DIY speakers, it is not going to turn out well.

I... umm... now contract out enclosure construction.

 

[a4eaudio]

I am re-doing these by Parts Express Speaker Design Competition scheduled for July - I'll be changing all of the drives, stain the veneer a little darker, likely make the baffles piano gloss black.

 

[Wolf11Man]

I appreciate JPAs subtleness. Before I read through the replies, I was going to reply to the quoted part above with a simple "Bullsh!t". Speaker design is NOT EASY - someone better be ready to put some time into it. Buying Purifi woofer and tweeter and thinking you will design a good speaker in a month is delusional (and I see it all of the time). But the idea you need years of education and years of experience is way overstating it.

We are getting OT. I was just trying to explain why good kit's are the best way to go for the majority of DIYS people.

You may be right today, with the right simulation tools you may not need to know why to place something where or for what reason something has to have this volume. If you are a very systematically working person and a fast reader, this may bring good results.
I build speakers at a time, when TSP where unknown by most of the DIYS community. It was the time of universal x-overs, sold for Ohm, Watt and Hz. No one wanted to except that these do not fit any driver, the usual answer "but I like the sound, they are phantastic!" A best case scenario was that the tweeter did not instandly burn.

Imagine to design a speaker from a picture and some basic data of a drivers, no computer or Internet. I build my first speaker kit in 1974. Quite OK, much better than the expensive Rosewood Grundig speakers of my father. The problem was I had friends with rich parents, JBL, Bose, Eletrovoice, Canton, Braun, you name it, in large houses. That makes you want more.
I always returned to practical speaker building from time to time. Must have been around 1983, when I had phone calls with loudspeaker driver manufacturers for TSP's.
Mr. Hausdorf from VISATON told me that TSP are trade secrets . They used spread sheets to calculate bass cabinets, I could ask him... When I told them I needed the TSP for a computer programs, they said something like that didn't exist. They ran in Basic on my Sharp PC1500 calculator, stored on compact cassette. I programed it from an article about Thiele Small parameter in some magazin. TSP, volume and you got Qtc, f3 etc. I never designed a disapointing bass cabinet ever again. The other builders wasted wood for "test cabinets" and didn't really know what the result was. Building a bass horn without some math? Funny idea IMO.
I had the advantage to understand Englisch, so I was not limited to the German literature, which only had few books about speaker design. The famous "Klinger" for example. More collections of speaker plans, but no real facts. I had to travel downtown to the international bookstore and order English publications. Thiele and Small, my heros of the day.
Every year there where new developments and I think I have tried to understand and use them all, until today.

Long story short, I have repeatedly tried to find out which part of all the knowledge is superfluous. I really don't know. Even historic speakers show you something, like sometimes how not to do it.
Can the data a Klippel machine spits out be understood and used effectively, without the basics, not knowing a whole bunch of real drivers and how they behave?
Can resonances and vibrations in a housing be largely avoided without practical experience, like bad and good examples?
In a few years KI may do all the thinking, you will receive the result of a simulation. Every area of life is governed by it; human objections are forbidden.
You are anticipating this development by using a simulation without any background knowledge.
Will it work? Sure, but you won't know if there are better ways to do it.

 

[a4eaudio]

I was just trying to explain why good kit's are the best way to go for the majority of DIYS people.

I agree with you.

 

[rdenney]

I know a lot of people that don't DIYS a speaker because of "I did it" or in search for a hobby, but simply because the well made kit is so much more value than a finished high end product. People that spend hours auditioning in HIFI studios and DIYS shops as well and realized the same money would result in 3 times higher audio quality. Others wanted a special veneer or color, those "made to order" HIFI speakers often have ridiculous surcharge and endless deliver time. The carpenter next door is not cheap, but will build whatever you desire, much faster.
I used to help a carpenter specialized in cabinet building for DIYS kit's at my business premises when he needed cabinets in special Car paint colors, as these were different from standard woodworking lacquers. More than once we had to match the color to a sample of nail enamel, WAF...
By the way, in exchange I learned a lot about wood working: Win-win.
If you don't have the option to listen to finished DIYS kit's, you may not know how good many of them are. You find a better DIYS kit for almost any commercial offer. Even with a handmade cabinet from a carpenter, your save huge on high price speakers.
There are therefore very rational reasons to build a loudspeaker yourself, with varying degrees of vertical integration.

Today the alternative of active pro monitors is there, a while ago these where much more expensive in comparison. It is somewhere between and above the other two options.

Your basic expectation is that a good DIY kit will get a better result, dollar for dollar, than commercial speakers. I would agree, with two provisos:

1. The time you spend pays you in enjoyment, not dollars, and that's how you'd like to spend your time for whatever reason. I totally get that impulse, but it's the critical question. The OP's approximately kilobuck price point would pay for two hours of a small-town attorney's time, three hours of a consulting engineer's time, or 50 hours of the McDonald's night-shift supervisor's time. And that's not including the cost of the materials, especially the drivers and crossovers. Doing a good job, including procuring the materials, would take me at least that 50 hours, and I have the tools and the basic skills.

2. The commercial speakers you are comparing them against are bought new, with the usual retail markup.

My Revel F12's are in a rectangular enclosure that would not require artistic wood-working skills to replicate, especially if one is willing to apply an adhesive veneer as Revel did. (BTW--Woodcraft sells hardwood veneers with a 3M adhesive backing that works really well--I used it for a cabinet I built for my RV, which is pretty tough service, and it's held up superbly.) Even so, I very much doubt that most people could replicate or improve on those speakers in any dimension for the $700 a pair I bought them for on ebay, even just buying the materials. And this is the going rate for those speakers.

Rick "what's your hobby?" Denney

 

[a4eaudio]

...I very much doubt that most people could replicate or improve on those speakers in any dimension for the $700 a pair I bought them for on ebay, even just buying the materials. And this is the going rate for those speakers.

I think you are correct. Those Revel drivers are very similar to SB Acoustic's ceramic drivers. The SBA drivers alone (1" tweeter, 5" mid, dual 8" woofers) from Madisound, would cost $960.

 

[hex168]

These days, I think there are several cases for DIY: 1) Personal growth and fulfillment; 2) to test a concept; 3) to meet a requirement difficult to fill in the market, such as to fit in a particular spot, or a floor-to ceiling line array or CBT, or oddly, the combination of accuracy, high efficiency, and designed to need a sub. See https://www.cinergyaudio.com/collections/home-theater-kits
for some examples of the latter.

Otherwise, used and known good is probably the most cost-effective.

 

[DanielT]

Complex waveguides and baffle geometry has an impact only on mid high frequency. If you want bass (quality and quantity) as well as high dynamic capability, then better driver is always needed, especially on two way system.

That is why I don't understand all the fuss on Audio First Fidelia or Asci labs F6B/ C6B in this forums. I have a feeling that great amount of people on this forums just see the spinorama, harmonic distortion graph over 100Hz and price then declare a loudspeaker is good or bad one without paying attention to bass extension/bass distortion. Meanwhile, multiple researchs shows that bass quality is an important factor when evaluating loudspeaker.

While I admire their optimized waveguide and baffle geometries, their woofer choice is questionable, apart from cost perspective. SB15NBAC/CAC (Fidelia) or SB16PFC (F6B) or SB17NBAC/CAC (C6B) are good midrange drivers, even great ones (SB15, SB17). But they are not up to task if needed to produce low frequency (under 70Hz) based on my extensive experience with them as well as measurements by multiple trustworthy sources (Erin, Hobby-Hifi). So all of them should be use either in near field (Fidelia) or with subwoofer.

As evidence, by measuring with Klippel machine, Erin shows that SB17CAC has only 2.8 cm xmax while WF182BD14 has 3.97 cm xmax (Dickason)
And the distortion measured by hobby hifi is below at 90dB
SB17CAC:
H2 0.32% at 100Hz, 1% at 70Hz, 3.2% at 50Hz and below that rises linear
H3 0.32% at 100Hz, 1% at 70Hz, 3.2% at 50Hz and below that rises linear
H5 0.1% at 100 Hz, 0.32% at 50Hz, 1% at 35Hz and below that rises linear

WF182BD09
H2 0.4% at 100Hz, 1% at 40Hz, 3.2% at 25Hz and below that rises linear
H3 0.1% at 100Hz, 1% at 48Hz, 3.2% at 35Hz and below that rises linear
H5 0.02% at 100 Hz, 0.32% at 32Hz, 1% at 25Hz and below that rises linear

WF182BD14
H2 0.35% at 100Hz, 1% at 60Hz, 3.2% at 40Hz
H3 0.1% at 100Hz, 1% at 50Hz, 3.2% at 40Hz
H5 0.03% at 100 Hz, 0.32% at 32Hz, 1% at 25Hz

H3/H5 by SB17CAC rises much earlier compared to Wavecor driver, especially with WF182BD09. Only H2 is fine but still reached 1% sooner than both Wavecor drivers

I recommend a great diy-design like DXTMon-182. It controls diffraction with waveguide tweeter SEAS DXT H1499-06, and beveled baffle. It also has WF182BD09 which is a great midwoofer for 2-way loudspeaker. Crossover is optimized as showns by measurement on the kit webpage. Price to build will be around 1 kilo USD if fully diy with new components. The quality (measurement and sound) will compete with 2.5k-3.5k loudspeaker like KH150 or A6B. Size is not too big and one can veneer/paint/lacquer it to match with room aesthetic and get WAF.

SB15NBAC/CAC..But it's a good midrange. Here's a DIY, that I heard, with:
SB SB26ADC-C000-4
SB SB15NBAC30-8
Satori WO24P-4

That DIY used the best tools in the toolbox; curiosity, persistence and a hell of a lot of time. He built various test boxes, baffles, measured over and over again. Interspersed with theoretical calculations. The result was yummy. A pair of really good speakers.

 

[DanielT]

DIY as a hobby, to learn, because it's fun as
pointed out by several in the thread, I agree with that.

But to get better performance for X amount of money vs commercial speakers? Doubtful.
Just take these new ones:
The 12i series is now available in the EU.
12.0i €300, 12.1i €350, 12.2i €450. Price per pair!
Take 12.0i or 12.1i I find it hard to believe that any DIY can match them in price and performance. Or, I could be wrong?
Maybe on par with but not much more. That's assuming that 12.0i and 12.1i measure well, which I guess they do.

Diamond 12i

Discover Wharfedale Diamond 12i speakers: evolved design, refined sound, and outstanding value that make true high-fidelity more accessible than ever.

www.wharfedaleusa.com

New Wharfedale diamond series out soon!

New Wharfedale diamond series out soon! https://www.wharfedaleusa.com/collections/diamond-12i Looks like minor changes with binding posts, crossover, finishes, and bass port for the main alterations.

www.audiosciencereview.com

On the other hand if someone took the time and built something really good and then 12.0i or 12.1i vs:

2-way with wide dispersion and low distortion. Linear CTA-2034. Mechano26

Another take on a small two-way monitor design. While searching through various datasheets, I came across a driver setup that seemed to allow for directivity matching between the tweeter and woofer without using a waveguide. This should allow for good control of the CTA-2034 characteristics as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Then maybe it will come in a different light.
It may not be possible to generalize. It depends on, various factors and so on.

Some examples where DIY is the only choice:
Custom-made subwoofers to fit into a combined living room, listening room.

An old vintage radio. Take out the maybe 100 year old tube receiver. Install modern full range drivers plus amp with bluetooth receiver. Plus some lights. Retro vintage radio with modern sound and modern features.

 

[Audionaut]

Eigene Entwicklungen

www.donhighend.de

In principle, you can build anything Alex designs; he knows a lot about speakers and their development. Unlike me, he always develops his speakers to completion and documents them very well. If you have any questions, you can use the comment function below each speaker. He also speaks English.

Italian Pony

Sehr häufig sind Heimkinofans an mich mit der Frage herangetreten, ob nicht irgendwann einmal etwas für ihre Vorlieben aus meinem Entwicklungsraum kommen würde. Nach reiflicher Überlegung und Durchforstung des Chassisangebotes diverser Hersteller habe ich mich dazu entschlossen, auf Basis der...

www.donhighend.de

Focus

"Leg ihn um!" - Zugegeben, diese Aufforderung könnte man an anderer Stelle durchaus falsch verstehen. Nicht aber im Zusammenhang mit der "Focus", in deren Zentrum sich ein noch recht neu auf dem DIY-Markt erhältliches Koaxialchassis des italienischen Spezialisten Sica befindet. Genau dieses...

www.donhighend.de

 

[Multiway]

Think bigger!

Who can afford a five way Cessaro or big Avant Garde etc?

I've had great fun and got increasing better sound evolving my systems.
From humble 2 way. Bass box + horn.
Adding mid horn, then mid bass and then tapped horn subs.
To full 5 way front loaded.
Choosing drivers, amps.
Using simulators to predict freq resp etc outcomes and proof designs.
Going from passive XOs, to active with DSP.
Time and phase aligning etc.
Trying different horn profiles etc.
Always measuring. Firstly with Holm Impulse and then REW to set up and refine.

You can't do that just buying!

5 way as it was in 2015.

2.4m tall tapped horn subs are behind the horns / lazy ribbons.

Then I got into Synergy Multi Entry Horns. Coherent phase from sub 100Hz to 10kHz +
Whole other ball game.
Chosing drivers for hifi rather than PA as the originals have.

Same tapped horn subs. Here as a 4 way.

You just can't buy this kind of DIY fun.

Next up will be my own take on Synergy Horns.
3d printed complex precision throat, FIR DSP...
Gonna be fun.

 

[Audionaut]

Think bigger!

Difficult if you want to have some bookshelf speakers.

I prefer bookshelf speakers.

 

[ShadowFiend]

DIY as a hobby, to learn, because it's fun as
pointed out by several in the thread, I agree with that.

But to get better performance for X amount of money vs commercial speakers? Doubtful.

Why doubtful? I have an example is DXT Mon182. Do you have any example of commercial speakers with budget of 1100€ to compete with that speaker in two way category, from top to bottom frequencies. And please don't bring any speaker with SB17xxx as sole woofer as they are inferior in bass.

Just take these new ones:
The 12i series is now available in the EU.
12.0i €300, 12.1i €350, 12.2i €450. Price per pair!
Take 12.0i or 12.1i I find it hard to believe that any DIY can match them in price and performance. Or, I could be wrong?
Maybe on par with but not much more. That's assuming that 12.0i and 12.1i measure well, which I guess they do.

Diamond 12i

Discover Wharfedale Diamond 12i speakers: evolved design, refined sound, and outstanding value that make true high-fidelity more accessible than ever.

www.wharfedaleusa.com

New Wharfedale diamond series out soon!

New Wharfedale diamond series out soon! https://www.wharfedaleusa.com/collections/diamond-12i Looks like minor changes with binding posts, crossover, finishes, and bass port for the main alterations.

www.audiosciencereview.com

On the other hand if someone took the time and built something really good and then 12.0i or 12.1i vs:

Until some measure is available, I do not trust any cheap commercial speakers in low frequency region. Because bass is the product of at least two of those factors: powerful motor, big radiation area and big box volume. If radiation area and box volume is not big, in the case of those Wharfedale's speaker you just posted, then the only way to get good bass quality is powerful and optimized motor, and that costs money. Even KEF with their manufacturing at least equal to Wharfedale must use the inferior woofer on their Q KEF Concerto, and the price of them is even little higher than the Wharfedale you posted.