DIY Ultimax Sealed vs SVS

[levimax]

Not sure your physical room set up or if you can get permission to cut big holes in the walls or ceilings but my next sub project is probably going to be to try an "Infinite Baffle" subwoofer in the ceiling. The advantages of IB subs are huge (low cost and high performance and takes up no space in the room). http://ibsubwoofers.x10host.com/

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

As long as you're not using a plate amp, and I wouldn't, the 113l will be fine. Remember you need power and DSP...

No no, I won't get a plate amp. I've read aren't worth it and they can fail easily. I probably going for a Crown XLS Series or a Behringer 6000 (D). The pro amp that I'm getting will have DSP I guess. Is my Denon X-2700H okay to support such setup?

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

Not sure your physical room set up or if you can get permission to cut big holes in the walls or ceilings but my next sub project is probably going to be to try an "Infinite Baffle" subwoofer in the ceiling. The advantages of IB subs are huge (low cost and high performance and takes up no space in the room). http://ibsubwoofers.x10host.com/

Thank you for the suggestion. I wouldn't go for such invasive methods to be honest, but it seems like an interesting option for people with proper suitable rooms for the setup.

 

[Everett T]

No no, I won't get a plate amp. I've read aren't worth it and they can fail easily. I probably going for a Crown XLS Series or a Behringer 6000 (D). The pro amp that I'm getting will have DSP I guess. Is my Denon X-2700H okay to support such setup?

The crown amp won't have the DSP you need. You'll need a filter like a Linkwitz transform. You would need to add something like a minidsp. To be honest you might be better off purchasing the SVS and then start with building a DIY sub to get a better understanding. Id hate to see you disappointed.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Hi everyone, merry Xmax!!


I’ll try to keep this as short and clear as possible so I can explain the situation, my needs, and ask for advice.


Room: 13 × 12.5 ft with 9.8 ft ceilings (does not open into a larger space when the door is closed)


Usage: Music and movies. We listen to a lot of bass-heavy music since this room also functions as our home gym, but we also watch movies and TV series.


AVR: Denon X-2700H


LCR: Monolith 365C + 365T


Surrounds: Kenwood Series 21 satellites


Subwoofer: (don’t laugh) Logitech Z-5500
I converted it to passive and connected it to a NEC A-230E amp. I believe the NEC has a preamp stage inside, because when I tried to power the Logitech sub with another amp, it didn’t produce any signal at all (not sure why).


I previously owned dual Monolith 13s, but I sold them because they were huge and we needed the space for other equipment in this multi-use room. Now I’m stuck with the Logitech sub, which heavily distorts during movies or when I turn it up (obviously there’s no proper limiter).

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What I want to upgrade​

I want more bass. I’m not necessarily chasing infrasonics, but above 27 Hz (or even 31.5 Hz) I’d like to reach SPL levels of 120 dB+.

Limitations​

Maximum subwoofer depth: 19 inches

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Prices for dual subwoofer options (Europe)​

• Dual SVS SB-1000: €1,500
• Dual SVS SB-2000: €2,100
• Dual SVS SB-3000: €2,800
• Dual SVS SB-5000: €5,600
• Dual SVS SB-17 Ultra: €7,400
• Dual Arendal 196 1S: €2,000
• Dual Arendal 1723 1S: €3,000
• Dual KRK S12 G4: €1,300

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DIY option​

I could also go the DIY route with these sealed kits, powered by a pro amp:

• Dayton Audio UM18 sealed kit (dual): €1,500
  https://audiostatus.lt/product/dayton-audio-18-ultimax-subwoofer-kit/
• Dayton Audio UM15 sealed kit (dual): €1,100
  https://audiostatus.lt/product/dayton-audio-15-ultimax-subwoofer-kit/

Amp: Behringer NX6000D – €460

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Questions​

How do these Ultimax sealed kits (15 or 18) compare to the other subs on my list?
For example, could dual UM18s provide more SPL from ~30 Hz to 80 Hz compared to the SVS SB-17?


If the CEA-2010 data I found for the Ultimax 18 is accurate, it seems this driver can easily outperform the SVS SB-4000. However, I can’t find CEA-2010 measurements for the newer SVS models (SB-5000 and SB-17).


Any advice or real-world experience would be greatly appreciated.

Have you considered dual SVS 3000 Micro’s? They are 11” cubes and will do the job and fit anywhere. The phone app that controls the subs makes it easy to tune to room quickly.

 

[levimax]

Have you considered dual SVS 3000 Micro’s? They are 11” cubes and will do the job and fit anywhere. The phone app that controls the subs makes it easy to tune to room quickly.

OP wants 120 dB @ 40 Hz which even at the very high distortion levels allowed with the CEA-2010 spec would require 5-6 of these. Most people overestimate what these small sealed subs can do, a great resource to keep in perspective what small subs can actually deliver is a test done here on ASR https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/

 

[Bob from Florida]

OP wants 120 dB @ 40 Hz which even at the very high distortion levels allowed with the CEA-2010 spec would require 5-6 of these. Most people overestimate what these small sealed subs can do, a great resource to keep in perspective what small subs can actually deliver is a test done here on ASR https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/

I use 2 of the 3000 Micro’s in half of a 12’ by 35’ great room. They work quite well. They are so small, he could start with 2 and add more until satisfied. I ended up bumping the measured response up 3db from average flat between 20 to 80 Hertz for personal preference. Running a bass sweep and adjusting via the phone app makes short work of setup. Since the OP doesn’t need below 27 Hertz, these could work. From a financial perspective, you could purchase 8 of the Micro’s at current sale price of $699 versus 2 PB17Ultra’s at $3000 each. Some folks get one big sub and balance the room nodes with smaller subs. Lot’s of ways to get desired results.

 

[DVDdoug]

If you build a speaker I ALWAYS recommend using some speaker design software to optimize performance, and you can experiment virtually before you buy the driver. And you can compare sealed & ported designs, etc., before building anything. WinISD is FREE!

The crown amp won't have the DSP you need.

For a "small" sealed box, right... These amps usually only have high & low pass filters for crossover. With sealed boxes you generally need customized low-frequency boost to compensate for the speaker's roll-off. A plate amp may not have exactly what you need either but they usually have more adjustments/controls.

This post shows the general trade-offs between sealed and ported designs. The ported box goes lower before the -3dB down point, but has a steeper roll-off so at some point the curves cross and the sealed box is putting-out more, so with EQ and enough power it can beat the ported box.

...DSP/EQ doesn't work as well for ported designs because at lowest frequencies the driver tends to flop-around without putting-out much sound.

Pro subwoofers used for live music and in clubs are usually large ported cabinets tuned to go down to around 40Hz (which is close to the lowest note on a regular bass guitar). It's a compromise that allows for high sensitivity-efficiency and high SPL so they can fill a large venue with bass you can feel in your body. Home subs are often tuned (and DSP'd) to go lower, and this works because you don't need as much output in a smaller room. (But I built large ported subs for my home theater, tuned down to around 30Hz.)

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

Have you considered dual SVS 3000 Micro’s? They are 11” cubes and will do the job and fit anywhere. The phone app that controls the subs makes it easy to tune to room quickly.

	20hz	25hz	31.5hz	40hz	50hz	63hz	80hz	100hz	125hz
SVS 3000 Micro	75.8	80.6	85.3	93.9	100.7	106.1	110	109.4
SVS SB-1000 pro	91	97.7	104.2	109.1	114.5	116.7	115.2	113.3	111.5
SVS SB-4000	98.5	101.3	108.1	116.1	121.1	123	-	-	-
SVS SB16 Ultra	103.1	109.4	116.1	118.2	119.2	119.5	119	119.3	119.8
Kali WS-6-2	-	96.6	102.5	102.4	101.8	103.4	110.4	111.6	-
KRK 12inch	92.8	99.1	111	115.6	118.7	118.2	115.8	113.6	110.6

As for their prices:

• SVS 3000 Micro: 897 euros
• SVS SB-1000 Pro: 760 euros
• SVS SB-4000: 2500 euros
• SVS SB-16 Ultra: 3300 euros
• Kali WS-6-2: 600 euros
• KRK 12inch: 660 euros

*All the table above is from Sweetchaos Spreadsheet.
*Prices are in Europe.

SPL-wise at all frequencies for the money, I personally think that KRK 12 wins. But it's still pretty weak and I can't find any reviews about this sub, other than maybe some home-studio owners.

Is it true that even a single Dayton UM18 in a 113L sealed box would crush even the SB16? And with that price of the SVS I can get 2 or maybe even 3 Dayton's.

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

The crown amp won't have the DSP you need. You'll need a filter like a Linkwitz transform. You would need to add something like a minidsp. To be honest you might be better off purchasing the SVS and then start with building a DIY sub to get a better understanding. Id hate to see you disappointed.

Which SVS though? And what are the possibilities for me to fail during the DIY option? I'll get the ready kit, the driver, a minidps, download REW and ask for some advice also.

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

OP wants 120 dB @ 40 Hz which even at the very high distortion levels allowed with the CEA-2010 spec would require 5-6 of these. Most people overestimate what these small sealed subs can do, a great resource to keep in perspective what small subs can actually deliver is a test done here on ASR https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/

Even then, the SVS Micro @ 40Hz can reach 93.9dB's. Six of those would give me 118dB's or so? And the price of that setup would be 897x6

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

If you build a speaker I ALWAYS recommend using some speaker design software to optimize performance, and you can experiment virtually before you buy the driver. And you can compare sealed & ported designs, etc., before building anything. WinISD is FREE!


For a "small" sealed box, right... These amps usually only have high & low pass filters for crossover. With sealed boxes you generally need customized low-frequency boost to compensate for the speaker's roll-off. A plate amp may not have exactly what you need either but they usually have more adjustments/controls.

This post shows the general trade-offs between sealed and ported designs. The ported box goes lower before the -3dB down point, but has a steeper roll-off so at some point the curves cross and the sealed box is putting-out more, so with EQ and enough power it can beat the ported box.

...DSP/EQ doesn't work as well for ported designs because at lowest frequencies the driver tends to flop-around without putting-out much sound.

Pro subwoofers used for live music and in clubs are usually large ported cabinets tuned to go down to around 40Hz (which is close to the lowest note on a regular bass guitar). It's a compromise that allows for high sensitivity-efficiency and high SPL so they can fill a large venue with bass you can feel in your body. Home subs are often tuned (and DSP'd) to go lower, and this works because you don't need as much output in a smaller room. (But I built large ported subs for my home theater, tuned down to around 30Hz.)

I've thought of buying a pro active sub, like a JBL/EV/QSC and call it a day. But most of them have like 35-40hz (-10dB) just like you mentioned.

When you said that the sealed box can beat the ported one, is that for how dig they can dig, or the SPL across the whole frequency range?

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

Then, there's the Arendal 1961S at 1000euros:

15hz: 100dB
20hz: 104dB
25hz: 106dB
31.5hz: 110dB
40hz: 112.5dB
50hz: 115dB
63hz: 116dB
80hz: 116dB
100hz: 115dB
125hz: 114dB

 

[Everett T]

Which SVS though? And what are the possibilities for me to fail during the DIY option? I'll get the ready kit, the driver, a minidps, download REW and ask for some advice also.

This would be your first diy build correct? If so, and I believe it is, your understanding of how to change the F3 with EQ won't be easy for a first timer. A ported sub would be simpler.

You have specific needs, size and SPL, so purchasing a couple of SB16s would be a no brainier. You could go down to 4 SB3000s, but you're going to have to consider costs. I get you're probably riding a high, most likely, but your original Monoprice subs seem like they were good for the room.

The quality of bass is better than a numbers goal and the EQing is still going to be important.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Even then, the SVS Micro @ 40Hz can reach 93.9dB's. Six of those would give me 118dB's or so? And the price of that setup would be 897x6

Does SVS have sales in Europe? Right now - in the U.S. - Micro’s are $200 off at $699 each. List is $899, but I have seen the $699 price several times in the last 2 years. I bought my 2nd one from the Outlet store - was supposed to be “open box”, but appeared to be “brand new” when it arrived.

 

[Flaesh]

merry Xmax!!

Well said, thanks!))

I’m not necessarily chasing infrasonics, but above 27 Hz (or even 31.5 Hz) I’d like to reach SPL levels of 120 dB+.

Build a ported enclosure tuned to approximately 30- Hz. Make it as large as possible. Include a high-pass filter at 20+ Hz. Room modes will help at 43-45 Hz and room gain may help below.

 

[CJH]

And the HSU ULS-15 MK2
CJH