DIY Monitors

[igpr]

Hi there.

Currently, im running JBL LSR305s alongside a dayton MX15-22. The JBLs will play happy to about 55hz and the sub up to about 60hz, which makes for some decent response with a little EQ.

However, I'm wondering if there's any performance left on the table mids and highs wise. Sub is tight and clean, and will happily play as loud as I want and well below 20hz, but my monitors feel a tiny bit lacking, especially when I'm turning them up to 90-95dB (i know it'll blow my ears out, I just want to be distortion free as loud for as I wanna play them, and to keep up with my huge sub). I feel like at higher volumes, I run into a little woofer compression, and despite the measurements being pretty flat it's lacking warmth. I've found it hard to EQ that warmth you get with larger floorstanders and bookshelves in with this little system, at least comparing it to PMC Prophecy 9s I heard not long ago.

My goal is to get to about 40-45hz in a relatively small cabinet (probably 0.65-0.75cuft net) so I can cross lower than I am now and have a little more warmth. Does anyone have driver suggestions for 8" or 7" drivers below and around £100? I was looking at the Dayton SIG225 originally, but the RS180-4 and ETON 7-612/C8/32 have caught my eye - wondering if the ETON driver is worth the extra £50 per pair compared to the RS180.

Tweeter recommendations also welcome, but I wanna focus on the woofer and get enclosure design outta the way lol

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[AnalogSteph]

The first thing I would try in your situation is coaxing an 80 Hz or even 100 Hz crossover out of your existing setup. At 60 Hz and high levels you are asking quite a lot from the JBL woofers which are not the last word in electrical nonlinearity. I would consider about 120 Hz the sub's upper limit when it comes to this (rule of thumb: impedance < 1.5 x Zmin), so you still have some leeway there assuming the driver's slight response droop can be EQ'd out.

 

[DVDdoug]

If you are doing audio production and "truly monitoring", you're taking a chance with DIY.

I've found it hard to EQ that warmth you get with larger floorstanders and bookshelves in with this little system, at least comparing it to PMC Prophecy 9s I heard not long ago.

My goal is to get to about 40-45hz in a relatively small cabinet (probably 0.65-0.75cuft net) so I can cross lower than I am now and have a little more warmth. Does anyone have driver suggestions for 8" or 7" drivers

Size isn't everything but, size matters... Both cabinet & driver size. If you are constrained to a small cabinet, a smaller woofer often works better. (I don't really consider a 5-inch woofer to be a "woofer", but you do have your sub.)

But rather than making generalizations, get some speaker design software, plug-in the Theile-Small parameters for some drivers you are considering, and you can optimize a ported or sealed cabinet design and experiment virtually before you buy or build anything. WinISD is FREE.

 

[Heinrich]

Currently, im running JBL LSR305s ...

In my tests the 305 (1st edition) showed a bit of high frequency compression, so that at higher volumes I couldn't get a fair frequency response using a sweep. 3rd harmonic distortion is a bit elevated compared to e/g Neumans, but intermodulation is kept in check pretty well.

But rather than making generalizations, get some speaker design software, plug-in the Theile-Small parameters ...

Thiele-Small parameters are not that relevant anymore. An equalizer will do the job within the limits of power availability / digestion, cone excursion, Doppler modulation and wind noise from the port. Actually, with the advent of high excursion drivers the topic became a bit complicated. Before the optimisation was about low frequency extension at reasonable level, now some other limits have to be considered likewise.

 

[igpr]

The first thing I would try in your situation is coaxing an 80 Hz or even 100 Hz crossover out of your existing setup. At 60 Hz and high levels you are asking quite a lot from the JBL woofers which are not the last word in electrical nonlinearity. I would consider about 120 Hz the sub's upper limit when it comes to this (rule of thumb: impedance < 1.5 x Zmin), so you still have some leeway there assuming the driver's slight response droop can be EQ'd out.

You see, I would cross higher, but I can't really. 90hz ish would sit right with the JBLs, but the sub is about 40cm to the left of my listening position. So I like to keep it crossed a lot lower because having higher bass to my left is really really weird (below like 50hz I can't tell as much).

If you are doing audio production and "truly monitoring", you're taking a chance with DIY.

Nope, just average listening. I chose the JBLs because, on paper, they get to about 50hz happily, and have flat response that I can EQ to my liking. But I'd like to try make something a little warmer that fits my needs better now I have a sub to cross to.

Size isn't everything but, size matters... Both cabinet & driver size. If you are constrained to a small cabinet, a smaller woofer often works better. (I don't really consider a 5-inch woofer to be a "woofer", but you do have your sub.)

But rather than making generalizations, get some speaker design software, plug-in the Theile-Small parameters for some drivers you are considering, and you can optimize a ported or sealed cabinet design and experiment virtually before you buy or build anything. WinISD is FREE.

I'm not exactly constrained to a small cabinet, but I would just like to keep it as compact as I can whilst retaining low end response. I have enough space but would rather not make them huge and obnoxious, anything more than 0.9cuft net would just look ridiculous.

I've modeled all the drivers, the ETON and RS180-4 are roughly the same response, and the SIG225 falls a little shorter but makes up for it with higher sensitivity. Plus I have the MX15-22, which matches quite well with the SIG225s looks wise, and the extra sensitivity will help avoid compression and keep distortion lower.

In my tests the 305 (1st edition) showed a bit of high frequency compression

I don't know if it's compression I'm suffering from, or what that term really means? I've got a LOT of harshness once I turn it right up - might be placement and reflections, might be distortion, I'm not sure. Certain frequencies are a LOT louder and ear piercing than they should be I think, unless that's just a byproduct of having it close to max volume lmao

 

[a4eaudio]

...I've modeled all the drivers, the ETON and RS180-4 are roughly the same response, and the SIG225 falls a little shorter but makes up for it with higher sensitivity. Plus I have the MX15-22, which matches quite well with the SIG225s looks wise, and the extra sensitivity will help avoid compression and keep distortion lower.
...

I don't know about the Eton, but you are exactly right about the RS180 and SIG225, the Reference Series goes lower while the Signature Series has higher sensitivity. Making a two-way with an 8" driver is challenging. The RS180 is listed as a 7" driver but is really a 6-1/2, so also consider the SIG180.

 

[kemmler3D]

I don't know if it's compression I'm suffering from, or what that term really means? I've got a LOT of harshness once I turn it right up - might be placement and reflections, might be distortion, I'm not sure. Certain frequencies are a LOT louder and ear piercing than they should be I think, unless that's just a byproduct of having it close to max volume lmao

In this context compression means the speaker can't hit the same max SPL at every frequency. So if you turn it up and 1khz hits 95db but at 3khz you're only able to hit 92db (when they are equal at lower volume) then you would say there's 3db of compression at that frequency.

It's not really the same as how compression is talked about in the studio context but it's similar.

This will tend to make harshness worse depending on which frequencies are failing to keep up, in conjunction with distortion probably rising faster where there is compression.

 

[Looneybomber]

I feel like at higher volumes, I run into a little woofer compression, and despite the measurements being pretty flat it's lacking warmth. I've found it hard to EQ that warmth you get with larger floorstanders and bookshelves in with this little system, at least comparing it to PMC Prophecy 9s I heard not long ago.

My goal is to get to about 40-45hz in a relatively small cabinet (probably 0.65-0.75cuft net) so I can cross lower than I am now and have a little more warmth.

Warmth can mean multiple things to different people, but to me, warmth has nothing to do with 40-50Hz. Warmth, typically refers to extra output between say 100-300Hz. If you say your speakers measure pretty flat, that explains why they don’t have “warmth”. Instead, they’re flat/neutral.

The requency range of “warmth” is also impacted by the room and the distance your speakers are from the front wall. SBIR (a large dip in response due to sound bouncing off the wall behind the speaker causing a cancellation) usually happens within 100-200Hz depending upon how far your speakers are from the front wall. How far is the baffle of your speaker away from the wall behind it? If it’s 1.5-3ft away from the front wall, that will put a large dip in response between roughly 95-190Hz and it can’t be EQ’d.

 

[a4eaudio]

....So if you turn it up and 1khz hits 95db but at 3khz you're only able to hit 92db (when they are equal at lower volume) then you would say there's 3db of compression at that frequency...

Great example! I think this, and a few other things like intermodulation distortion, aren't talked about enough except in some more technical threads. The question arises... Can these speakers X that use a $35 woofer and measure great hang with the speakers Y that cost $1000 and measure great? Well, yeah if you are listening at 2m and 70dB.

 

[kemmler3D]

Great example! I think this, and a few other things like intermodulation distortion, aren't talked about enough except in some more technical threads. The question arises... Can these speakers X that use a $35 woofer and measure great hang with the speakers Y that cost $1000 and measure great? Well, yeah if you are listening at 2m and 70dB.

Yep. There are a good handful of great, cheap nearfield speakers if you never want to go beyond 85dB SPL and a little more for peaks. There aren't any great, cheap speakers if you want to do 110dB at 10m. There are some physical realities of speakers as we know them that prevent that.

As you note IMD also becomes more of a problem for small speakers at high SPL. You can run from doppler distortion, but you can't hide.

 

[Heinrich]

You see, I would cross higher, but I can't really. 90hz ish would sit right with the JBLs, but the sub is about 40cm to the left of my listening position. So I like to keep it crossed a lot lower because having higher bass to my left is really really weird (below like 50hz I can't tell as much).

Coming back to equalisation, do you plan to x/over the main speakers, cut the bass actively? I don't remeber if that was asked, or confirmed already. In case not, it may be advisable to design something special. Let's see.

 

[AnalogSteph]

You see, I would cross higher, but I can't really. 90hz ish would sit right with the JBLs, but the sub is about 40cm to the left of my listening position. So I like to keep it crossed a lot lower because having higher bass to my left is really really weird (below like 50hz I can't tell as much).

I know exactly what you mean. Sub usage in nearfield systems comes with some unique challenges. Is there any chance you could set up dual smaller subs instead (like 8-10")?

 

[igpr]

Coming back to equalisation, do you plan to x/over the main speakers, cut the bass actively? I don't remeber if that was asked, or confirmed already. In case not, it may be advisable to design something special. Let's see.

I'm using my DSP for my crossovers, and autoEQ from my REW measurements on PeaceEQ for getting the response how I like it. But I can't really get the extra warmth in I want without sacrificing mids + treble volume if that makes sense. The default curve for my room iirc is a little bright for the JBLs and response falls off fast below 55hz.

I know exactly what you mean. Sub usage in nearfield systems comes with some unique challenges. Is there any chance you could set up dual smaller subs instead (like 8-10")?

As much as I would like to get a smaller pair, I'll be using this 15" for HT when I move out and can't be dumping more money into subs right now. I've only had this about 4mo now and don't have anywhere to put this huge box if I did build something else.

In this context compression means the speaker can't hit the same max SPL at every frequency. So if you turn it up and 1khz hits 95db but at 3khz you're only able to hit 92db (when they are equal at lower volume) then you would say there's 3db of compression at that frequency.

It's not really the same as how compression is talked about in the studio context but it's similar.

This will tend to make harshness worse depending on which frequencies are failing to keep up, in conjunction with distortion probably rising faster where there is compression.

I see. Hopefully my 100w yamaha avr and some DIY cabinets can reach that SPL then without compression. The harshness is unbearable (zero by smashing pumpkins stands out, vocals sound awful). That being said a lot of metal is really poorly mastered and sounds kinda ass even in the studio.

 

[Heinrich]

I'm using my DSP for my crossovers, and autoEQ from my REW measurements on PeaceEQ for getting the response how I like it. But I can't really get the extra warmth in I want without sacrificing mids + treble volume if that makes sense. The default curve for my room iirc is a little bright for the JBLs and response falls off fast below 55hz.

There's a little bit of uncertainty what 'warmth' should mean. My experience is, that the cleaner the bass, the less thick/warm/rumbling it is.

Good opportunity for story telling! Had a thunderstorm once right above my house. The roof was shaking and rattling from immense acoustic impact, not from the wind. Was it 'warm'? Not the least, more a bamm than a boom! Same with drums from a marching band, really, when do you ever hear big bass in (extended) nature?

Again, it is backed-up by data, that clean sounds lean. Thing is, there's the famous Fletcher/Munson effect, and mostly the sound in total is played back way quieter as it would be in reality. The xtra bass to compensate gets out of hand quickly, though.

But, if you're serious with doing the DIY, why not shift gears to race in the DIY section of this board? There's a lot to discuss, which may be of less interest for non-DIY consumers ;-)

 

[kemmler3D]

I see. Hopefully my 100w yamaha avr and some DIY cabinets can reach that SPL then without compression. The harshness is unbearable (zero by smashing pumpkins stands out, vocals sound awful). That being said a lot of metal is really poorly mastered and sounds kinda ass even in the studio.

Being pedantic, in this context compression is usually attributed to the speaker and clipping would be attributed to the amp.

I don't think that's album is poorly mastered, but don't disagree about metal in general. But isn't that more of a grunge album??

Pedantry aside those genres tend to have very dense have harmonic content which challenges speakers, especially when there's a lot of IMD or THD.

That somewhat relates to @Heinrich s point - warmth is sometimes created by adding harmonics rather than shifting the frequency balance per se. A bass tone with no overtones (read: no distortion) doesn't read as warm. You can see this in the 70 billion or so distortion VSTs that are used to enhance warmth per se.

 

[Heinrich]

... - warmth is sometimes created by adding harmonics ...

Maybe you find this elsewhere:

George Clinton / P-Funk, Summer Swim

The bass goes pretty much below 30Hz, but only occasionally. The vocals explain what you should experience. Some waves surrounding, may I say licking at you. Empty stop notes, hollow notes and all. Nasty, makes me feel a bit of cool close to shiver, and so forth. Let alone the captivated ice cream treble. So much on 'warmth' ;-) Any too much ruins it, meant to be easy. It's bass management from the artistic side of things.

 

[igpr]

Being pedantic, in this context compression is usually attributed to the speaker and clipping would be attributed to the amp.

Yes, I know. After my experience with the AVR on my subwoofer (i doubt it'll be the same situation with speakers) i noticed it clipping pretty hard often. Luckily got myself an XLS2000 and the sub will only ever see a clean signal now. I just hope I wont be too trigger happy with the AVR's volume knob and push it to clipping (i reckon my ears will stop me first lol)

I don't think that's album is poorly mastered, but don't disagree about metal in general. But isn't that more of a grunge album??

Pedantry aside those genres tend to have very dense have harmonic content which challenges speakers, especially when there's a lot of IMD or THD.

Yeah, I would argue it's probably grunge or alt rock. But I've found that harsh vocals and guitars can sound very jarring, like metallica or system of a down. And with these being my first monitors, I don't know if that harshness is normal or if my speakers/room are to blame. Songs with less going on or that aren't quite as messy and harsh sound amazing, like radiohead or QOTSA.

That somewhat relates to @Heinrich s point - warmth is sometimes created by adding harmonics rather than shifting the frequency balance per se. A bass tone with no overtones (read: no distortion) doesn't read as warm. You can see this in the 70 billion or so distortion VSTs that are used to enhance warmth per se.

I see. So you think warmth is more the song than speakers? I've found trying to add too much "warmth" in that 100-300hz range just makes vocals and bass guitars especially sound weird. I guess some songs are meant to just sound really hollow.

 

[Audionaut]

Does anyone have driver suggestions for 8" or 7" drivers below and around £100?

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[kemmler3D]

I see. So you think warmth is more the song than speakers? I've found trying to add too much "warmth" in that 100-300hz range just makes vocals and bass guitars especially sound weird. I guess some songs are meant to just sound really hollow.

Well, let me put it this way. If we take the concept of high fidelity literally, everything you hear should be from the recording and as little as possible would be the speakers.

If the speakers are adding "warmth" relative to some theoretically truly neutral speaker, it would tend to be from boosting the 100-500hz frequency range directly and/or adding harmonic distortion to those frequencies.

But there is a strong point of view that speakers shouldn't do that. If the recording is hollow it should sound hollow, if the recording is warm it should sound warm. The speaker should get out of the way as much as it can.